What is the Immanuel Approach? How can it help Christian men outgrow porn? Cathy Little and Melinda Wilson unpack this amazing way to change your brain and heal your heart through connecting with Jesus experientially. You'll also hear a refreshing reminder of how Jesus relates to you with unconditional love, even in your deepest shame.
Cathy Little and Melinda Wilson are the founders of Face To Face Ministries. They are passionate heart healers who have dedicated their lives to activating and equipping men and women with tools backed by brain science to accelerate personal breakthroughs through connecting with Jesus using the Immanuel Approach.
Check out Cathy and Melinda's podcast here.
Immanuel Sessions are designed to help you connect with Jesus, receive healing from emotional wounds and trauma, and uncover lies that keep you from living out the truth of who you are in Christ. There is no agenda other than to help you connect with Jesus and allow Him to lead you into greater healing, freedom, and wholeness.
Schedule an an Immanuel Session with Face To Face Ministries here.
Books mentioned in this episode (these are paid links):
Take the Husband Material Journey...
Thanks for listening!
What is the Immanuel Approach? How can it help Christian men outgrow porn? Cathy Little and Melinda Wilson unpack this amazing way to change your brain and heal your heart through connecting with Jesus experientially. You'll also hear a refreshing reminder of how Jesus relates to you with unconditional love, even in your deepest shame.
Cathy Little and Melinda Wilson are the founders of Face To Face Ministries. They are passionate heart healers who have dedicated their lives to activating and equipping men and women with tools backed by brain science to accelerate personal breakthroughs through connecting with Jesus using the Immanuel Approach.
Check out Cathy and Melinda's podcast here.
Immanuel Sessions are designed to help you connect with Jesus, receive healing from emotional wounds and trauma, and uncover lies that keep you from living out the truth of who you are in Christ. There is no agenda other than to help you connect with Jesus and allow Him to lead you into greater healing, freedom, and wholeness.
Schedule an an Immanuel Session with Face To Face Ministries here.
Books mentioned in this episode (these are paid links):
Take the Husband Material Journey...
Thanks for listening!
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Today, we are going to talk about experiencing healing through the Emmanuel approach with Kathy Little and Melinda Wilson, who are trained by Dr Carl Lehmann, the founder of the Emmanuel approach. You are going to learn exactly what it is, some of the brain science behind it, how it can help men outgrow porn by forming a secure attachment with Jesus and healing some of our spiritual attachment wounds. You'll find out about the value of gratitude and appreciation as a way to connect with God and ultimately, you'll get a lot of hope about how the real Jesus feels about you and even if you don't have much hope of a relationship with him or that things can change in your life, this approach is really transformative.
Speaker 1:I have been through Kathy and Melinda's facilitator training, which was excellent, and would highly recommend them. Whether you pursue Emmanuel sessions for yourself or whether you want to be trained to work with others or just change the way that you interact with God, this episode's got a lot of great stuff. Enjoy it. Welcome to husband material. Today I'm hanging out with Kathy Little and Melinda Wilson from face-to-face ministries. They are awesome and I can't wait for us to talk about the Emmanuel approach and how it can help Christian men outgrow porn. Thanks for being here.
Speaker 2:Hey, thanks for having us.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it certainly is a joy, drew, and thank you for the invitation. We're not often on this side of the mic, so to speak, so yeah, it means I can talk more right, More than if I'm actually asking someone questions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you all do a lot of training and you have a podcast where you've interviewed many Christian leaders in the inner healing world and specifically specializing in the Emmanuel approach. Kathy, what is the Emmanuel approach?
Speaker 2:The Emmanuel approach uses brain science principles and biblical principles to help people establish a living, interactive presence with Jesus. That feels true. It is dealing with Jesus directly. As a therapist or counselor, my job is to help you connect to Jesus experientially. My job is to help you stay connected to him and help you reconnect if something happens and you lose that connection. But it's a way to set people up, using the brain science piece, to be able to have an interactive connection with Jesus and allow him to bring healing to minister to you.
Speaker 2:Ironically, the goal of the Emmanuel approach is not to fix your ailment. The goal is to simply be with Jesus and it's in that connection with Jesus that healing comes. This is an opportunity for Jesus to remove anything that's in the way of having a deeper connection with him, and that could be past traumas, unprocessed pain, liger, but it could be a million different things that get in the way of that relationship with him. But in the Emmanuel approach, that direct connection with Jesus is the game changer, because being with him, experiencing his presence, knowing he's happy to be with you no matter what, those are the things that can touch places that talk therapy may not ever be able to, because it's in that experiential part of our brain which is where our wounds are held. So it's pretty cool. It's based on brain science, which is really fun because our brains are amazing.
Speaker 1:Melinda, what is the brain science?
Speaker 3:Well, I won't talk about different parts of the brain, because I don't even claim to be an expert on that, because I'm not. The beauty of the way God created our brain is that it is never too late. It's never too late to change the way we think, the way we react, the way we respond, and it's not behavior modification, it is actually changing our neural pathways. Practicing appreciation three times a day for five minutes each over 30 days will rewire our brain to run on joy, and that just doesn't mean I'm going to be like all the time. It just means I will start looking at life in a different way, and this truly can work with and for anybody. So that's the brain sort of simple explanation behind the brain science. We start in that positive memory, we don't start in pain, which puts us into our survival response, and that's just the good news. That's the good news that everyone can change and wherever you're at, whatever your issue is, so to speak, you can change because your brain can change.
Speaker 1:You mentioned appreciation. Maybe it will be helpful to tell people what are the steps of the Emanuel approach.
Speaker 2:We carry our relationships and our memories all in the right hemisphere of our brain. That's the experiential part of our brain, right, that's where the sensory components are. The left side of our brain is really much more about data processing. It's kind of like the binary computer, you know. But the experiential, colorful part of our brain is the right hemisphere and that's where we can store trauma and wounding. It's experiences that we've had that get trapped in a spot in our brain that doesn't actually know time has passed, right, it's not a really good teller of time. Time is kind of processed a little bit better over here in the left hemisphere of the brain. So what happens is that because we're storing our memories and emotions and traumas, all that stuff that is stored in the right hemisphere of our brain doesn't really know time has passed. That's why if you have something from your past that hasn't been processed or it hasn't been healed, then it's living where it doesn't know time has passed. So you can be reminded of a past trauma and it may feel true in the moment today, but it's actually connected to something in your past that hasn't really been processed properly. So when you start to think about something that's negative or bad, you can feel bad, you can totally drum up the negative stuff. We don't have any problem using our imagination to dwell on a memory in the past and we're seeing that all over again and it just brings up the trauma all over again because it lives where time doesn't process very well. So the opposite is also true. If you've got a positive memory, something that you have actually experienced, something that when you think about it, it brings you joy, you feel relaxed, you had a really great time, there's nothing negative attached to it, you can dwell on that, you can savor that memory and it will bring your brain online as if it's happening right now. The same feel-good chemicals, the dopamine, the serotonin those things that were released when you experienced that beautiful moment will be released in today and it brings your brain into a place up in the front where you can actually be more relational and connected not only with people but also with Jesus. So with the Immanuel approach, the beautiful thing, all of the models have a very wonderful place in the whole pie and we've honored them. That's our podcast, it's honored the different models and all of that. But one of the things that I really love about the Immanuel approach is that you start in that positive appreciation moment Now.
Speaker 2:Sometimes a person may have a really beautiful experience with Jesus that they've already had and they can refresh that and it becomes real in the now. But also most people don't really have that. You know, they don't have that because maybe they don't even know that they can have that interactive connection with Jesus. So if we're seeing someone for the first time, meeting with them one on one, we're going to invite them to refresh a positive memory, even if it's something simple like enjoying that first cup of coffee or being able to sleep in and loving how my bed feels at 10 o'clock and I didn't have to get up, or a sunset or something like that. It doesn't have to be complicated. But we ask that person to refresh all the details and all of the sensory components of that, because it's over here in the right hemisphere of the brain, right, and it brings you into a place where you are able to have that relational space open and active.
Speaker 2:And then we're going to upgrade that and invite you to ask Jesus to show you where he was with you in that memory, even if you didn't even know Him. Jesus is always with us and always has been. He is with us and he actually enjoys being with us and a lot of people don't even know that. So we invite them to ask Jesus to show them where he is and then begin interacting with Jesus in that moment. And we begin by just helping establish that interactive connection, testing that interactive connection, enabling them to begin this conversation in their mind's eye. We do covering prayer, we ask in Jesus to guide every thought, image, memory, emotion, physical sensation. All of that stuff already covered. Our imagination is God given anyway, so let's not get freaked out about it. Okay, like I said, we have no problem using it for negative stuff, but let's use it for God's purposes because we actually have that as a tool. So helping them to interact with Jesus. And then Jesus becomes the therapist in the moment, if there's something that they want to interact with him about. And our favorite question to ask Jesus is Jesus, what do you want me to know about XYZ? Where were you? What do you want me to know and what about that? Because he can give perspective in mind, sight that we don't have.
Speaker 2:And if it's something dealing with the trauma. Trauma happens when you feel like you're alone, you're outnumbered, you're overpowered, but if you have a traumatic memory, painful memory come up that Jesus is bringing to your awareness and then being able to interact and connect with him. In that, then you're no longer alone. And one of the things that Dr Carl Aiman has said he's the founder of the model Christian psychiatrist has done 30 years in this. He has said that of all of his experience and the thousands and tens of thousands of sessions that he has led once you experience Jesus in that historical memory, it is forever altered in your mind and you can't ever see it without him there. It actually is a game changer. So if you've got some trauma that happened. You felt like you were alone. Now you're experiencing Jesus in a way that really feels true and he's with you. In that you can't undo that. It's a new snapshot. You can't get rid of it.
Speaker 1:Both of you have been mentored by Dr Carl as well.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Talking about this and just hearing about it is so different from actually receiving it. So many guys who struggle with porn and unmonosexual behavior have told me I know God loves me. Intellectually, I am aware of that truth in my left brain, but they don't feel it, they don't experience it. And the experience of God's loving, intimate, tender, caring presence with me can have a huge effect on being able to be okay without porn or to be okay without the sexual things that are calling my name. And this approach is, in my mind, one of the most powerful approaches out there to overcome those barriers, to not just having the intellectual knowledge but the experiential feeling.
Speaker 3:Because how many of us have gone through life going? I've never felt God's love. I know he loves me, but how do you experience it? And there's the illustration or analogy that I use of we can learn all about something intellectually. Like I grew up, like I share in the training, I grew up really obsessed with koalas and learning everything about them, learning about their sleeping and eating habits not hard to know about their sleeping habits, their mating call, and I mean everything you can think of, how long they live. And I knew all about them, could sort of feel appreciation for them. But then I went to Australia and actually held one, and that's when I touched their fur and smelled what they smell like, felt it. It became a full sensory experience for me. And then all that knowledge I knew was now applied to what I'm actually holding, and so then my right brain can verify what my left brain is experiencing, saying yes, I'm experiencing this now. Now I verify and validate that this is true.
Speaker 3:But a lot of people have walked through their whole lives including Dr Carl Aiman, founder of this approach 35, 3035 years of Christianity without feeling it, knowing everything, and always on a quest to feel. We want to feel. We are human being, it doesn't matter like, oh, they're not a feeling person. Yes, you are, even the hardest hearted man or woman. You're a feeling person. You may just not have access to the emotions, but you are made in God's image, who is a feeling and emotional God. And emotions and feelings aren't good or bad, they just are. But they are also an expression of our humanity. And to do how we attack, how we really connect that to attachment is I want to feel loved by somebody. This is what we're all born for is to belong, to be seen, to be loved, to be accepted for who we are. This is the cry of every human heart. Again, I don't care if you say I don't need anybody. Yes, you do, because that's the way your brain is created. Your brain is actually created and thrives in the context of relational connection and so everyone needs relational connection. And if we just break down attachment that way, we are designed to attach to people, regardless of what attachment style you have, which all can be healed and become a secure attachment by Jesus, everyone's attachment style. I think secular psychologists would say our attachment style is just what it is. You can be moved toward wholeness, but really, if you're avoidant, dismissive, you're always going to be, and Dr Wilder and Dr layman and Jesus, I propose, would say no, if I can heal a broken bone, I can also heal your attachment style and pain, but it's going to take some time and intentionality.
Speaker 3:Spending time experiencing Jesus loving you. What does that mean? Like? How do we experience that? Well, it goes back to it how Kathy described a manual approach, starting with appreciation until we feel it. We can describe it using all of our senses. You think about a happy memory. You start feeling the feel good memories like oh my gosh, and actually get in touch and be aware of what you're experiencing and feeling.
Speaker 3:I think a lot of people go through life totally detached from their own heart, detached from their own body, and I don't think Christianity has done us a very good service, because it's all about spiritual growth and growing in my faith and growing in my love for God, ignoring that I'm a human with emotions, with a body, with a heart who longs for relational connection, and actually looking at my emotional health, my mental health, my physical health, all those things as one holistic package, and the faith and the spiritual growth is just one aspect of our healing.
Speaker 3:So I feel like a manual approach actually can encompass at least two of those things. Maybe not the physical, unless Jesus is like Get off your butt, girl, and go exercise. And he may say it to you like that depends on your wiring. And for he'd say it like that to me, believe me, because we have a relationship like, girl, what you get, put that Cheeto down. I don't eat Cheetos, but it's like you need to get. Can you get on a walk with me? Come on a walk with me. But instead of like go and do this, it's like, hey, come and walk with me or come and jog with me. I'm just using that as kind of a silly example but of expanding that into learning to experience Jesus With us in every aspect of our lives. And I kind of I know I've gone all over the place and I'm really broad, I breathe this stuff, but I'm going to stop now and pause and let someone else talk.
Speaker 1:It's so good because we are relational, we are physical, and porn promises to meet some of those needs and for men who have an attachment to porn, sometimes it has been the most secure attachment in our life. It has been there when no one else has been there. It's provided soothing when we were feeling anxious, it's allowed us to isolate and get away from everybody else when we needed some space. And the Emmanuel approach seems like it can create a spiritual, secure attachment that can give us maybe a little bit more freedom to detach from a sexual attachment to porn. That's what I've experienced, so I feel like this can really help anyone. Yet, specifically for guys who are sexually struggling and feel a distance and a disconnection with Jesus, this really is transformational.
Speaker 2:I've been in the healing arena long enough to know that any of the behaviors that are damaging to us, that we go to for that kind of artificial fix is because there's pain, like if there's pain somewhere that has not been processed. There's a reason why we have holes and gaps that we try to fill, for one thing, we are created to worship. It's built into us, and so when we have that misdirected and we're trying to attach to things that are not the authentic fix that we need or the real thing, we're going to have that tendency anyway to worship people. We're going to worship drugs, we're going to worship whatever our job, our role is. You know we've got all these different things that we use to patch the hole right, to try and stop the leak, but none of those things are going to work. Our desire is that you would wake up to who you truly are and to step into who you've already been. You just weren't awakened to it, like that's, the goal is to awaken to who you are, how God truly sees you, what your design is.
Speaker 2:But trauma and pain get in the way and I will address very briefly there are two types of trauma. A lot of times we think about trauma as maybe sexual abuse as a child or a car accident or being a victim of a mugging or something. Those are bad things that happen to us. We call that trauma B. Bad things happen to us, but there's actually trauma A, and trauma A is the absence of things that we needed. Trauma A is actually more subtle and more difficult to identify and heal. You don't even know what you don't know. And if it was your normal to grow up in an environment with dismissive attachment, father or mother, or to have narcissism around you, to have derogatory statements spoken over you or a little bit, you can't see those bruises. Those bruises don't show, but they're very much there and you may not even consciously be aware of them. You might not even have a clue because it's your normal. But when you connect with Jesus and you begin to build secure bonds with Him and you begin to learn the ways of Jesus and how he responds to you, how he's always happy to be with you, no matter what, even on your worst day, he's always happy to be with you. When you begin building that attachment and then he begins to bring up some of the things that maybe you didn't even realize had affected you negatively because it was your normal. It was your normal. We have the myth of normal Gabor Mate, who's done the wisdom of trauma. He's a medical doctor and he's really explored how emotional trauma affects the physical body and he's written a book. His most recent book is called the Myth of Normal.
Speaker 2:And it's true that we have normalized dysfunctional, abusive, emotionally distressing behavior because it's all we've known, and so it plants those wounds inside where the bruises don't show, and it messes up with our ability to even have healthy relationships, for us to even see ourselves in a healthy way. So if that stuff's happening and it's unprocessed in your past, then it makes perfect sense that a person would go to drugs, alcohol, sex, horn, workaholism, any of these things, because we're trying to stop the pain. That's what we want. That's what we want. We want our pain fixed. And so sometimes we get into that place where we're hitting the wall, the marriage is on the rocks, we've been found out, whatever, and then we're motivated. Now we're motivated to get help and we may go for some help and we may go through behavior modification or behavior management or talk therapy, and they all have their place.
Speaker 2:I've experienced both. I've had traditional therapy and I've had a lot of inner healing and I know they can work in tandem and they're really helpful. But there's something that is different when you can go after the wound where it lives and I mentioned earlier, it lives in the right hemisphere of your brain. Talk therapy is gonna be in the left hemisphere, behavior management is gonna be in the left hemisphere, but your wounds live in the right hemisphere of your brain. Experientially, that's where your trauma is taken root and that place doesn't know that time has passed and so you're gonna be continually retraumatized unless and until you can invite Jesus to be with you in that and to show you what you need to know, because sometimes we'll be in a one-on-one session. We never know where God's gonna take it.
Speaker 2:Somebody may say I want this pain fixed. That's awesome. I know Jesus wants that fixed too. But you know what the greater goal is For you to spend time with him and learn from him and to grow attachment with him, and he's gonna reveal these things that he wants to heal and he's gonna do it in a way that reveals his presence with you in it. I'm just gonna step into a guy's shoes with a porn addiction. I don't have the same type of story. I just have it. I don't have that and I'll admit that.
Speaker 2:But I have had a huge, colossal failure, moral failure that destroyed my life and my marriage and everything that toppled, lost my job on church staff. You know that's a quick exit path right there for you, but in my failure the first thought in my head because I had been developing a secure attachment with Jesus was I need help. I'm gonna fall toward you and not away, because I know what happened does not change your opinion of me in any way. I can't make you love me more or less. I have no ability to do that. And so for me it was the beginning of a massive inter-healing journey for me, because I had broken places in my life that were not dealt with. I had unresolved things that were continually messing with my present, even though they were in the past, because they lived where time isn't processed in this hemisphere of my brain.
Speaker 2:So when you can get to that point where you're beginning to see your identity and you begin to see how Jesus feels about you and you begin to grow in who he truly is and your complete inability to affect how he sees you, then in those moments when you crash and burn, you can fall toward him rather than hide behind the fig leaf, and that's gonna set you up for some of the most amazing healing that you've ever known, because when the facade falls, when the mask falls and you are naked and bare before the Lord and those in your life, you have choices.
Speaker 2:You can choose to run and hide and fight it till the death if you want to, or you can say Jesus, I need help. There's something that is anchored in me that is painful. It's causing me pain. I'm doing my best to cover it up and fix it, and I've done it in bad ways. I need your help. I need healing for the heart wounds that are driving me in this direction, because he's the only one that truly knows what they are and how to fix them, and he wants your healing for you more than you do. He wants it more than you do.
Speaker 1:Amen, you know, kathy, it reminds me of the saying healing is not found in the absence of pain, but in the presence of a manual.
Speaker 3:Come on, that's so true, that's Dr Carl Yep.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Sometimes when I'm telling people about Emmanuel, they say are you talking about the journaling or are you talking about something else? Can you explain some of the different ways that the Emmanuel approach can show up?
Speaker 3:That can be as simple as sitting with Jesus and starting to become aware of His presence, and something that is really important to know is that well, what do you mean? How do we see Him or know Him? People experience God's presence in all sorts of ways it may come through. I'm out of walk-in nature and I'm asking God to help me experience His presence and I see a tree that just makes me feel good and I feel close to God and I feel His presence. Or maybe I just have a knowing, or maybe I can hear. Some people hear an audible voice. I think that's very rare, but some people do. Some people have a vision with their eyes open. That's also more rare. An open-eyed vision when I'm looking through my imagination, seeing Him, even using the Jesus from the chosen, is fine. If we've watched the chosen or some other rendition of Jesus on the media, that's fine. Well, I'm just making it up. Well, no, you're not. God's using that too to bring a human face to Jesus. Obviously, we don't have any photographs of Jesus of Nazareth who walked the earth, but there's some pretty good depictions. I think the chosen is the best one. That's really the only one I would recommend, because it's showing a God who's glad to be with us and with His people in all of their mess. I feel like I just say that right now if you haven't watched the chosen, go watch the chosen and get some healing. Put yourself in the place of one of the disciples and go oh, I'm like Peter, I'm like Mary. Actually, if you put yourself in the place of one of those disciples or followers and look at how Jesus is responding, if you're having a hard time, like, oh, I'm having a hard time doing it for myself, turn on the chosen and do that. Who are you relating with? And then look how Jesus is responding or reacting. But that can grow and will grow by start practicing. Well, I don't hear from God. Well, stop saying that, first of all, and then come in with an expectancy, an expectation to hear or experience God. And that's one really great way of starting out, just coming in with the expectation. But it could be something really subtle.
Speaker 3:And the benefit of having somebody guide you through an Emmanuel session is that then you're then sharing whatever is coming in, like if you say oh, jesus, will you help me perceive your presence in this memory? And maybe you don't see anything, maybe you don't hear anything, but you're reminded of your grandmother or some random. A chocolate cake is coming into my mind, like what the heck? But you share that with the facilitator and you're like, huh well, lord, what's the chocolate? Well, that reminds me of my grandma and how much she used to love me and make cakes for me on my birthday and I felt so loved.
Speaker 3:And right there you have an experience with God. It doesn't have to look like well, he's got the long hair and wearing a purple robe or the prescribed way of experiencing God. And so when you actually share it with someone else, that's healing in community. So we get to process together what you're experiencing. And then you're not trying to figure out well, what chocolate cake, what is? Oh, well, then I'm not hearing God Forget it and you dismiss it. But when you share it with someone else, then you can both discern together what's this about and you start experiencing the presence of God. And as you practice it, then you will grow in your awareness and how you experience him.
Speaker 3:So, taking like journaling, for example, if I've already started to experience God in an Emmanuel session, which is different than journaling, then it's going to be. It's just going to add to the experience. So I'll just start journaling. We've done that in our community, where someone will come on and facilitate a manual journaling, and that's really you tap into an appreciation memory and you're writing it down. That also helps get it out of your brain on the paper. Let's say you don't have someone to facilitate on your brain.
Speaker 3:And then, jesus, how do you feel about me today? Or you can ask any questions how are you feeling about me? What gift do you have for me today? Or maybe you're journaling something difficult, jesus, how do you respond to this? And then you start just writing. It's kind of like stream of consciousness, writing. That's getting out of our left brain.
Speaker 3:Don't think like, I think he would say this. Then it gets into the left brain logic, analytical and just write. And that's another beautiful way you can. And then you look back the next day or the next week and go, oh my gosh, you know it's God. When you're like I wouldn't write that.
Speaker 3:Well, I think it's just me. Well, are you hearing and experiencing love and joy and peace? And yes, it is you and it is also God, because you are in him and he is in you. So I think that also can be a barrier. But as we practice all of these things it can expand and we can live it out as a lifestyle. So I'm not just journaling, I'm not just having a session, but now I'm standing at the kitchen saying, doing dishes, some mundane task that we all do, and now I'm immediately aware of where he is. I'm not a huge journaler. I do journal pretty much every day. I really just talk about my appreciation and that's also another beautiful way of doing journaling. And then some people, it is their everyday conversation with Jesus and they just make that a habit. So I'm not going to say you should do this or you shouldn't do this. It's all just different aspects of experiencing his glad to be with you presence.
Speaker 1:So good. What are some of the warning signs that someone's experience of Jesus might not be authentic or true?
Speaker 2:So there is a phenomena called false Jesus. Dr Carl Lehmann does some teaching on that. And when you've been raised in a very religious environment and you have all the Bible verses memorized and all of that, there's also a thing called spiritual bypassing. It was slap a verse on it where this is the thing I'm supposed to say, because this is what the Bible says, or this is a verse. I know. All things work together for good or whatever.
Speaker 2:But we're going to ask the true Lord Jesus to speak If we suspect that the real Jesus is going to line up with the fruit of the Spirit. That's kind of the litmus test for the voice of God. Anything that is condemning, anything that is accusing, anything that is judgmental, that doesn't line up with the fruit of the Spirit. And so that is the litmus test for the voice of God. If it doesn't line up with that, we're going to be a little suspicious. But I would say if it sounds super churchy and spiritual and it's just throwing verses around, or if it's not lining up completely with the fruit of the Spirit, then that could be your flag to alert you.
Speaker 1:So we do need Scripture to be our guide and give us boundaries, and also the way that Scripture comes is important too.
Speaker 2:Right. Well, and let me say this too, I might ruffle some feathers, and that's okay. I've had to undo some things along the way. From my upbringing Embedded theology that really is not who I've come to know Jesus to be, and while I value the Word of God that is printed, I also know that it has been influenced by people who have translated it over time, and so knowing how to read the Scripture is really important, because I think that we just take it at face value without understanding how to read it and understanding that the Bible was not written to you and me.
Speaker 2:It was written for you and me, and so we need to have a historical context, we need to have a proper hermeneutic for looking at Scripture. Having said that, I do value the written Word of God, but in my Bible, john 1 refers to Jesus as the Word. In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, the Word was God. Same was in the beginning with God At creation, the Word Jesus. I am really looking for the living Word of God to me from the person, jesus as the living Word, and that is where experiential will happen, more than reading words on a page, because that's a left brain activity. I apologize in advance if anybody's offended in any way, thinking that I am diminishing the Holy Bible. That's not what I'm saying. But I am saying that I will not elevate the Holy Book over the man Jesus, the God man Jesus.
Speaker 1:And also not elevating the Bible over the Holy Spirit who lives in us.
Speaker 2:Exactly, it is not God, the Father, god, the Son, god, the Holy Bible. Yeah.
Speaker 3:How does anyone in any nation that doesn't have the written Bible then grow in their walk with God? I mean, there's so many things we can unpack there and I feel like, in some ways, for anyone who feels like the Bible's been used as like a pummeling rod on you or to punish which I've met a lot of people that that's the case, I'm really sorry. It's like when you actually experience the good news as a person, then it's like, oh, I want to spend my time getting to know this good news and again we can memorize scripture till the cows come home and have it not just an applied to us at all. Like Kathy was saying, if you came to me and you're hurting or struggling, I am not going to slap a scripture on you, because you probably know it in your mind but it obviously hasn't made any impact on your life. If you're coming to me with the struggle that I would give you the scripture for, so let's get in touch with the living word and see what he has to share with you. And because, again, we can take any scripture and go oh well, this is what the Bible says.
Speaker 3:Like Kathy said, we have to be so careful about what this actually meant in the context. The only way that knowledge in Bible is going to transform me is if I actually experience the living word in my right brain, so that again that can validate what I've learned about God in Sunday school and church and verses and sermons. But until and unless we actually experience it, apply it to our heart, live with it, meditate on it, marinate on it Jesus, how do you feel about this Then we lose even at least 80% of information and knowledge we learn. If we're not practicing and applying it. Within three days, I mean, I can learn a recipe and go, oh, that sounds great. But if I don't actually take the recipe and take the ingredients and start putting them together, then it means absolutely nothing. I can look at a picture of it, but I'm not tasting it. I'm not experiencing it for myself.
Speaker 1:It reminds me of the part of 1 Corinthians where Paul says knowledge pops up, but love builds up.
Speaker 3:I just want to say there's no lost cause. Nobody is beyond help, nobody is beyond healing. No, no, no matter how far you've gone down any hole of addiction, dude bro, sis man, there is so much hope for you and you are not. You are not past any point of redemption, it doesn't matter. I've tried 75,000 times to break free of this and every time I repent and confess and weep and cry and gnashing of teeth and whatever. And now I'm back in this again, like, oh man, there's grace is endless. It doesn't end. You have a million, bajillion, infinity chances, if you even want to put it that way. I wouldn't even put it in the chance category. You're just always loved. There's endless supply of love. It never runs out. I don't care how many times you've gone into rehab or recovery or whatever and come back and failed and cycled, and there is an infinite amount of love for you. May you experience the tangible, living, interactive presence, friendship, presence of Jesus.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I was thinking what Melinda was just saying about how you can try so many times and you blow it and then you grovel and you're feeling horrible. I just want to address this word repentance, because I think we kind of miss it. We may have the impression, or have been taught or told, that repentance is like I've got to go back and beg and grovel and self-flagellate and beat myself up and just like, yeah, I'm such a horrible, worthless piece of crap and I'm repenting of this. I feel bad for this. Really. The word repentance, it means just to turn in a different direction. It's the shift, the prodigal son that whole story is about the father anyway. But the son changed his direction and the father was always there watching and waiting and with open arms to celebrate and with joy of his son coming home. This is telling us who Jesus is. He will never give up. He will never stop searching for that coin. He will never, ever stop searching for us. He'll never stop, never, ever stop, and he's always right there.
Speaker 2:And we think that our bad theology says that when we screw up, god looks away. I'm sorry that you might think that, but it's not true. We think God can't look on sin. He turned away from Jesus on the cross. Well, no, he didn't. Jesus was quoting from Psalm 22, which is actually my God. Why have you forsaken me? But if you read the whole Psalm, which the people that he said it in front of would have known to look at, it's all about, but you didn't turn away from me. You never turned away. It is the victory of Jesus, and that's another thing. We've got to learn how to read scripture and understand contextually and historically. Our God never looks away. Even in your worst moment. He never looks away. We may look away, and the repentance is that we turn back.
Speaker 1:That's so good. Sometimes, when I've spoken about the need for healing and deeper work, those who have a long history of Christian faith and ministry might say well, but the Bible says that what you really just need is repentance. At least it seemed like those things are at odds with each other. But really it's not. This whole journey repentance when we're interacting with Jesus experientially, when we're healing our childhood trauma, when we're forming new attachments All of that is a form of repentance. So thank you for clarifying that, helping me see it as well, because sometimes it can be confusing to wonder well, do I need a spiritual solution or emotional help or some kind of a sexual program? And ultimately we need Jesus and he can heal us in so many different ways. I'm thrilled to have benefited from your ministry and it's really increased my connection with Jesus and ability to help others, and the manual approach is creating amazing opportunities to receive God's love emotionally, physically, with our whole selves. How can face-to-face ministries and your work help with that?
Speaker 2:We do offer one-on-one ministry sessions with the Emanuel approach. That is something that we offer on our website. A man on our team, His name is Robert Alston, and he is an amazing prayer minister. For the guys that may want to meet with a male, he is available. His calendar is available to book there. Really, our call is to raise up heart healers with healed hearts. That's what we're doing, so we focus a lot on training and development and we've got some different ways to enter into that. We've got a brand new year-long program, our core program that we've just launched, and we'll be opening enrollment to that. But best thing to do would be to get on our newsletter list, which you can on the homepage of our website, and book a session. I mean, just give it a try. This is one of those things. It's like come taste and see what the Lord can do.
Speaker 2:A lot of women are doing this a lot more than the guys, but I love when the men step up and they deal with their crap and they move forward and they help other guys, like you have, Drew. I've got a lot of respect for you and what you're doing and the influence that you have, because you've channeled all of the beauty that God has put in you into making a difference and an impact on the world around you. And that's the beautiful thing, because your life, brushing up against other lives, is making a difference, and that's what we all are called to do. We're called to carry the kingdom. Represent the kingdom well, love people well, create safe spaces for people to deal with their junk so that they can get rid of anything that's in between them in a deeper relationship with Jesus, because that is a number one goal we're created for it Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Cathy. I would strongly recommend going through anything with face-to-face ministries, including their facilitator training, if you want to help others with this. Cathy and Melinda, what is your favorite thing about healing?
Speaker 2:I never get tired of watching people awaken to the reality of Jesus and how he feels about them. I love that the trajectory of your life can change on a dime through that connection with him. Learning his heart for you, seeing his heart for you, learning how he sees you, it literally will transform your theology. It'll transform your life. And I love that.
Speaker 2:There is never a period at the end of anyone's sentence. There's never a period at the end, because he's never going to tire, he's never going to quit on you. He never will. He never has and he never will, no matter how much you may have felt that he has, he never has. He is not the God who looks away, he doesn't. So when I see people step into that and they discover who they truly are and they begin to operate and live their lives out of their true self, their true core identity, that's when they can step up and make the difference with the world around them, because we're bringing our best selves to the plate. And not only that, but the ripple effect of the change in your life will impact those around you. So it's never ending, it continues on. It's never just about you, it's about everybody else that you touch.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think, seeing people find out who they really are, and I see healing as, yeah, not only removing blockages to intimacy with Jesus, as Carl would say, but restoring our true identity. And I don't see healing as becoming a new person. I see healing as becoming the person that God saw in the beginning, that you are, and it's just icky down by stuff, stuff done to you, stuff you've done. That's how I see it, as reconnecting with my true original. God designed self.
Speaker 1:Yes, and that is exactly why I always end every episode saying you are God's beloved Son and you, he is well pleased.