What is the difference between outgrowing porn and purity culture? In this replay from The Porn Free Man Conference, you'll experience dramatic examples of what these two approaches look like, sound like, and feel like when you are...
Drew Boa, Doug Carpenter, Henry Brown, and Jordan Castille are all members of the Husband Material Leadership Team.
Related episodes:
Take the Husband Material Journey...
Thanks for listening!
What is the difference between outgrowing porn and purity culture? In this replay from The Porn Free Man Conference, you'll experience dramatic examples of what these two approaches look like, sound like, and feel like when you are...
Drew Boa, Doug Carpenter, Henry Brown, and Jordan Castille are all members of the Husband Material Leadership Team.
Related episodes:
Take the Husband Material Journey...
Thanks for listening!
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go. Some of you may not know that I would be co-presenting this first session with some members of the Husband Material team and I am going to put them on here now Together, doug Henry Jordan and I are going to do just a little bit of lecture up front and then we are going to do some drama. We are going to perform a play and actually a series of plays to help you guys get a sense of how different it can be when you are approaching freedom and healing from the perspective of purity culture versus outgrowing porn.
Speaker 1:The term purity culture is just a shorthand way for us to talk about the typical Christian, evangelical attitude towards sexuality and toward removing porn from your life. In the usual Christian approach, which you might associate with certain churches or theology or certain recovery programs, there tends to be some very unfortunate trends in how they will tell you this is what you need to do to be free. It's typified by the book Every Man's Battle and Every Young Man's Battle, which you may have heard, and any kind of program or book that emphasizes fighting the battle for purity is typically along these lines. In purity culture, our main problem is seen as a lack of sexual purity. This comes from our sinful heart condition.
Speaker 1:Our core desires are fundamentally bad and sex is viewed as dirty and gross. Therefore, we must battle our sexuality. To do this, we need lots of accountability so we can finally learn to avoid lust, and success is measured by how long I've been clean. Relapse is viewed as a failure and our language is harsh and critical. We are motivated by fear and shame. Our ultimate goal is behavior modification and our sexuality is repressed. In other words, when you experience a sexual attraction or a fantasy or the urge to use porn purity culture, you are supposed to shut it down. Attack it with Bible verses, avoid it through going to take a shower, stop thinking about it, just ignore it. There can be some helpful strategies with that, but in the end you feel like you're fighting a frustrating, exhausting, never-ending struggle.
Speaker 2:You have to pray it away. Or if you were a better Christian, you wouldn't even be struggling like this.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah. The accountability is crazy. I had a coworker once in high school and he and his buddies formed what they called Club Zero. When they would come into the youth room, they would hold up their hand with how many times they'd masturbated that week. The goal was to come in like this as opposed to or or.
Speaker 1:Let's just stop there Now. While that's not necessarily bad, you can see how it can fuel fear and shame, right. The fear of what if I'm not in Club Zero this week, the shame of being in this group and holding up the number of fingers. That is actually creating the exact dynamic where sexual addiction is formed. Research by Patrick Karns showed that the people who are most likely to become sexually addicted come from a rigid and disengaged family home, where rules are more important than relationships and nobody's really connecting at a heart level. That kind of dynamic is actually part of the problem. We think it's the solution, but it's actually just driving us deeper into that cycle of binging and purging on porn.
Speaker 2:Much like Henry, I had a youth group one time where they called it starving the sumo, so they saw their sexual drive as a sumo wrestler. He's just this huge, scary, big guy that could just overtake you. They had to starve him to death to get him to go away. There was just no real connection to understanding their body or sexuality or the beauty in it. It was all just something to be avoided.
Speaker 1:I even see Drew saying starving the sumo is straight out of every man's battle.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, Well, that's yeah. I never bothered to read that book.
Speaker 1:Jordan. How have you seen this purity culture play out?
Speaker 4:I was part of a group many years ago. At one point I was just really really struggling and giving in to acting out a lot. It came to a point where some of the guys in the group just ganged up on me and they're like what are you going to do to change? I was just like I feel like I'm doing everything. It was very hurtful the way that they handled it.
Speaker 1:In a purity culture environment, inevitably small groups and accountability, relationships and friendships and programs either become stressful or stagnant. Either we're really really serious about our sexual behavior or we just lower our standards. Neither one leads to deep healing and transformation. That's purity culture. Now let me tell you about a different approach, which I've called outgrowing porn. This week I received a couple of messages from people saying what do? You mean outgrowing porn.
Speaker 1:Why do you say that it's insulting? You don't outgrow sin, you don't outgrow unrighteousness. At one level I agree. As long as we're alive, sin is a part of our life. Not everybody sins in the same way.
Speaker 1:For those of us who keep coming back to unwanted sexual behavior, especially porn, we need to realize that this did not start in our adulthood, most often started when we were little boys, when we were children. The porn industry exploited us from a young age. It's actually illegal to introduce children to pornography. But if you think back to your own story, when did porn come into your life? You can put it in the chat. How old were you? Nine years old, 10 years old, 11, 12, 7, 13. Everyone's saying somewhere between 5 and 16, and if it was older or younger for you, that's okay. My point is this started when we were boys. Men don't get hooked on porn. Boys do so. We need to heal the boys so that the man can appear. We need to restart our sexual development where it got stunted. And if you can agree with that premise, then here's the outgrowing porn approach.
Speaker 1:Our main problem is not a lack of sexual purity. In fact, none of us are sexually pure. We are pure in Jesus, but none of us are completely pure. Our main problem is a lack of sexual development, and this comes from our childhood experiences, from the way we were formed and deformed by how we grew up. Our core desires and our sexuality is fundamentally good and beautiful. God created it and therefore our goal is not to fight against our sexuality, it's to fight for our sexuality. It's to befriend our sexuality, and if you're not sure what I mean by that, stay with us and we'll show you. In order to befriend our sexuality even the parts of us that want porn we need lots of attunement. Healing happens in relationship, so that we can finally learn to love and be loved, because that's what it's all about at the core.
Speaker 1:Porn is a pacifier and a predator on young boys, and it's a way that we punish ourselves. It's a pacifier, it's a predator, it's a punishment. In order to break up with the sexually abusive partner of porn, we need to learn how to love and be loved by God, by other people and within ourselves. And so we measure success not by how much we avoid lust, but by how much we've grown in our ability to give and receive love, how much we've grown in our ability to practice self-care, in our ability to regulate when we're feeling triggered or stressed or numb. We measure things like okay, how easily can I face my emotions and identify them? How am I growing into the kind of man who's honest, who's trusting?
Speaker 1:We're focused on character development, and relapse is not viewed as a failure. It's viewed as feedback. What can I learn from this? It has something to teach me, and so our language is not harsh and critical, it's gentle and kind. It's not legalistic, it's loving. We're motivated by curiosity and compassion, and our ultimate goal is becoming mature emotionally, sexually, spiritually and, as a result, our sexuality is not repressed, we don't get rid of it, it's redeemed. Guys, what do you hear in this different approach? There is hope, not hating ourselves.
Speaker 2:Compassion, grace.
Speaker 1:The heart of Jesus kindness, love, the prodigal father's approach, patience I love that, speaking kindly to myself beauty, redemption, understanding my sexuality right, instead of just trying to get rid of it like let's understand it.
Speaker 2:All parts of me are beloved and walk up. That's great Conditional understanding.
Speaker 4:It confronts a religious spirit.
Speaker 1:Chris is saying does this have similarities to the Soul Refiner series? You know, soul Refiner and the Conquer series and Warpath tend to be more on the purity culture side of things. I mean not always. I mean there's a spectrum. It's not like everything is just one or the other, but they tend to have a very military mindset which kind of makes you feel like, well, I'm the problem. So we do have a different emphasis here. Peter says we can grow, we're not stuck in the cycle of shame.
Speaker 4:I hear being real.
Speaker 2:Our approach isn't about controlling yourselves. It's about growing yourself. It's about maturing yourself. It's a totally different mindset.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean you can get rid of the behavior of porn just by totally cutting yourself off from every ounce of access to it, but you wouldn't necessarily grow. We're more interested in deeper work, and we're going to show you what that looks like, because this approach might sound really nice in theory, but practically okay. How does this affect what you do when you're reaching out to a friend after watching porn, when you're checking in with your small group, when you find yourself sexually attracted to a friend or when you feel really strong urges? That's what we're going to show you. So here we go. It's time for some drama.
Speaker 1:One of our other favorite approaches that we use at Hasmah Material is psychodrama. This is something we're doing online in HMA and also in person at our retreats, where we use role playing to show and experience what needs to happen and allow our bodies to release trauma and find healthy relationships. Psychodrama is awesome. Jordan, henry and Doug and I have done a lot of this work together and that's why I've chosen them to be my acting troupe together, and we're going to demonstrate a number of scenarios. You can turn to page six now in your workbook and we're going to get started with the very first scenario in reaching out to a friend after watching porn, is going to model the difference between viewing relapse as a failure versus viewing relapse as feedback. Jordan and I will be doing this one. You ready, jordan?
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, here we go.
Speaker 4:Hey man, I messed up again.
Speaker 1:What do you mean?
Speaker 4:Oh, I left at porn another time this week.
Speaker 1:Oh man, this has been a really bad month for you.
Speaker 4:I know I just can't stop relapsing. I don't know how to stop.
Speaker 1:I mean, technically, at this point it's not even a relapse, because you don't actually have anything to relapse from. But what are you going to do about it? What are you going to do differently next time?
Speaker 4:I don't know, man. I feel like I've tried everything. I really suck at this.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, at least God forgives you.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I really have trouble believing that.
Speaker 1:Well, even if you have trouble believing it, it's still true, and remember the truth will set you free. Can I pray for you?
Speaker 4:Okay.
Speaker 1:God, you are righteous and we are so unworthy. Remind my brother that you died for his sins so he could be free from this. Show him how much you hate porn and give him purity, amen.
Speaker 4:Amen.
Speaker 1:So let's pause. There Is how are you feeling with this? Yikes gross, that was harsh. Spiritualizing 101.
Speaker 2:It wasn't just your words, it was your face Two.
Speaker 4:What did you see on my face?
Speaker 2:Those demeaning, condescending looks of yours.
Speaker 4:It was kind of like Jesus drank the words yeah, no, empathy.
Speaker 1:Right, I shamed him, but I didn't shame him. I reminded him that Jesus died for his sin. I'm not shaming him. Bro, Jordan how did you feel?
Speaker 4:I mean I definitely fell, especially at the end there, like dismissed and just it was almost like get your act together, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, even though I'm using the language of the gospel Right and even though I'm saying things that are true, like maybe it's true that it's not a relapse because you don't have anything to relapse from. But is that helpful? Oh, all right, let's show a different approach. So that was viewing relapse as a failure. This is viewing relapse as feedback.
Speaker 4:Hey man, I need to check in.
Speaker 1:What's going?
Speaker 4:on. Well, today I saw an ad for porn and I chose to click on it. I'm feeling a lot of shame right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. Thank you for your honesty. Would you like to process it?
Speaker 4:Yeah, absolutely Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my heart is with you. Right now, I'm just sitting with you and I wonder what might have led up to this.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's a really good question. I think ever since she left, I've been lonelier than ever and I feel like I can't fully depend on anyone because I'm a pastor, so I've just been spending more and more time online.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I hear you saying that you're feeling lonelier than ever and you can't depend on anyone, so you're just on the screen.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Man.
Speaker 1:I can relate to that. When have you felt this way before? When have you felt lonely? You can't depend on anyone and you're spending a lot of time online.
Speaker 4:Like my entire childhood.
Speaker 1:Well, can you remember any specific moments?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think maybe when I was bullied in elementary school and video games were my only friend and I would play hours and hours of like Final Fantasy and Mario.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, totally. Those were the days, man, when mom and dad were too busy, like they were our friends. Yeah, that's really interesting that you mentioned video games. Were you playing video games when you saw the ad for porn?
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, How'd you know that?
Speaker 1:I didn't know, I just guessed.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:I mean, if you were feeling that way, maybe it took you back to that same place.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that makes total sense.
Speaker 1:What kind of ad did you click on?
Speaker 4:It was anime porn, you know, it's the kind of thing you might see when you're playing a Japanese video game Like Final Fantasy, yeah, which maybe that's part of why it clicked on it. Maybe, Dude, this is crazy. I had no idea there would be so much behind this moment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I mean, when you were in elementary school, those video games were there for you, yeah.
Speaker 4:And you know they really comforted me, and I mean literally Final Fantasy, it's a fantasy world and I got to be the hero in the game.
Speaker 1:I really hear you light up when you talk about being a hero.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah and honestly, I think that's the part of what I love about being a pastor I get to be a hero by pointing people to Jesus, the real hero.
Speaker 1:That's so beautiful, and at the same time, heroes can be lonely.
Speaker 4:Yeah, they really can.
Speaker 1:And lately you've been really lonely.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and honestly, lately I haven't felt like a real hero at all, been feeling like a loser.
Speaker 1:I'm so sorry. I mean especially after she left too, yeah.
Speaker 4:That really hurt.
Speaker 1:I know this might sound weird right now, but can I affirm you yeah, sure. Jordan. In you I see the heart of a hero. Wow, yeah, I love you man. I love this amazing desire that God put in you, and it seems like, in a way, this game was just a glimmer of that.
Speaker 4:Thanks.
Speaker 1:I know we have to go soon. Can I pray for you?
Speaker 4:Yeah, do it.
Speaker 1:Okay, god, thank you so much for giving my brother the heart of a hero. Right now, he's feeling lonelier than ever. Comfort him, flood his body with a sense of your love and grace and your embrace, bring him into the connection that he's longing for. Amen, amen.
Speaker 4:Thanks, drew, anytime Okay.
Speaker 2:How are you feeling, Jordan?
Speaker 4:Man, that was good and I got pretty emotional.
Speaker 1:Yeah, me too.
Speaker 1:I see a bunch of guys saying that I'm in tears. Amazing, wow. So this is what it looks like to be helpful, so powerful and touching to watch Trust safety. Eric says wow, I can't even imagine having that kind of conversation with a friend. This is completely different than I've ever experienced. Mark says loving the little boy who wants to be a hero. Underneath our lust there's a little boy who needs to be loved, and so if we stay in that failure kind of approach, then we're just staying at the surface, we're not discovering some of these treasures of understanding, but then also the intimacy and the vulnerability that came out of that and this is not a special thing, this is pretty typical. This is what we do here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, eric, when I read your comment it really I started to tear up that you've never had that experience, man.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:For sure, we deserve that kind of support.
Speaker 1:Great question from Michael. How do we do this when we, for example, make the same mistake for the umpteenth time? Well, you're not going to have the same conversation over and over again, but we do want to have that same posture and attitude.
Speaker 2:We look at what keeps pulling us back and approach that with some curiosity so we can try and define the root of it and what we truly need to bring about healing, and that's not more punishment.
Speaker 1:Dennis says is there a time for tough love? I'm sure there is. And here's how we show tough love with curiosity. We say, hey, I know this might sound really tough, but would you be open to a challenge right now, or would it be more helpful just to keep listening? You know, like, what would be more helpful for you right now, support or challenge? That's a curious question. And then he can say what he needs and we trust him to be able to name that. And you notice, at the end I said can I pray for you? And if he said no, no, thanks, that would be totally valid. You guys ready to go to the next one? Okay, henry and Doug are going to demonstrate this next one, which will be sharing a vulnerable part of your story the harsh and critical approach versus the gentle and kind approach.
Speaker 3:Hey man, there's something I want to share with you. Okay, it's about my sexual fantasies.
Speaker 2:Oh hey, have you read that J-stringer book, that that one about oh unwanted? He talks a lot about sexual fantasies. Have you read that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just finished it.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, just making sure, because if you're dealing with that, you need to read it, but go on.
Speaker 3:Well, I have this thing for body odor.
Speaker 2:So you have a thing for body odor. What do you mean?
Speaker 3:Is someone like smells really bad. It's a real turn on for me and I don't. I don't really know why.
Speaker 2:Hmm, that's really interesting. I had an uncle one time and he used to love the smell of his farts. I never knew why. Isn't that weird? I mean, I'm not saying you're weird, I'm just saying you know, sometimes that can be weird.
Speaker 3:Well, I feel really weird, and I've never told anyone that before.
Speaker 2:Why not?
Speaker 3:I just I haven't felt safe enough.
Speaker 2:Sounds like you have real trust issues with people Like have you ever been involved in a men's group or something where you like learn to trust some other guys?
Speaker 3:I guess that would really help.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've just never really heard anybody share that, that that kind of a sexual fantasy, before.
Speaker 3:No, that's. That's why I don't share it. I don't. I don't think most people would understand.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I get that Right.
Speaker 3:I don't know.
Speaker 2:So notice that I felt creepy just even doing that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so let's talk about what we noticed Right. Well, if we go back to the beginning, you recommended the book Unwanted and I specifically wanted us to talk about that book because in my opinion, it's the best book out there on this topic. Yet even recommending the best book out there on this topic is still avoiding the heart and the pain and the vulnerability that Henry is entrusting right now. The issue there was that it's it's not empathetic, it's just giving advice. Ryan says good intentions but comes off uncaring.
Speaker 1:Now, even if you don't like the book Unwanted, that's okay. It's just an example of a great book. That is sometimes, you know, not the right time for telling somebody oh, you should listen to this podcast, you should read that book, Even you should go to husband material, you know, maybe that would be helpful, but that's actually harsh because you're not really really listening, not really kind. And then, of course, he focused on himself. That's not really judgmental or harsh, but that's something that we often do is we make things about us and we kind of steal the spotlight from the person who's sharing and you can see how insensitive that was in the moment.
Speaker 3:I can relate to that and see that it's like you want to rewind the conversation and not go there and that weird. Well, I'm not calling you weird, but you did and then even calling me out on trust issues.
Speaker 2:Which has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:It's a collection of your emotional needs.
Speaker 1:Thompson says Doug is every guy I know.
Speaker 4:And he said I've never heard a guy share like Henry did.
Speaker 1:Well, in a husband material, we don't allow you to respond like Doug. We're not going to shame you if you respond like Doug, but we're going to create a culture that's different and we also are really sharing vulnerably, like Henry just did as well. Let's try a different approach. I'm ready for it. Okay, doug and Henry, this will be more gentle and kind.
Speaker 3:Hey, man, there's something I want to share with you, okay, hey, I'm all ears. It's about my sexual fantasies.
Speaker 2:Hey, I noticed that when you said that, like then, you wanted to talk about this, you immediately lost eye contact with me and you're just looking down what's going on for you right now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've never told anyone this stuff before.
Speaker 2:Wow, henry. I just want to tell you that I feel really honored that you would allow me into this space with you and that you would feel comfortable sharing whatever you're going to share with me. I want you to know that I respect that and I feel honored by that, and I'm here to listen.
Speaker 3:Well, you've earned my trust. I just I need a moment to get the courage to say it.
Speaker 2:Hey, you take all the time you need. I'm not going anywhere. I'm right here with you and I can be patient.
Speaker 3:Okay, I have this thing for body odor.
Speaker 2:Okay, tell me more about that.
Speaker 3:Well, if someone smells really bad, I just really get turned on by that and I don't know why.
Speaker 2:That's it. That's it. Is there, like any particular like type of smell that seems to like trigger those arousal feelings, that arousal part of you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, anything that smells like sweat Okay.
Speaker 2:Wow. So take a minute and like, what does that remind you of? Like, when you think of that, where does your mind go, where does that take you? Or maybe it's even an emotion that comes up for you when you smell that or have that feeling or that thought or that experience.
Speaker 3:Honestly, it reminds me of my uncle. God. This is so messed up.
Speaker 2:It's okay, Henry. What's happening for you right now?
Speaker 3:I'm just I'm shaking. I can't even believe that I'm telling you this.
Speaker 2:Henry, that was so brave of you to share that with me, and it must have been really scary to take something that's been hidden inside of you for so long and to finally verbalize that to somebody. Thank you. But I noticed, like as you were, as you said, that like something really shifted in you. It was almost like I got the sense that you were just like flooded with emotion or shame, or you grabbed your head and you put your face in your hands. Talk to me about that. What happened for you?
Speaker 3:Well, when I was a little boy, my uncle would come over my dad's brother and he would come over after he was working out and he would be all sweaty and wet and gross and he would just grab me and give me a big bear hug.
Speaker 3:As I grew older and got into sports, my uncle was the one that coached my teams, because my dad was real artsy and more into music and stuff. And so my coach, my uncle, my coach, he actually trained me, he trained with me, and so he wouldn't just tell me to go run or to lift weights, he would do it with me, and when we got finished he would always put his arm around me and tell me how proud he was of me. And I was a sophomore before, I was taller than his armpit, so I was just always right there. And when we were done, we would lie on the grass together Next to each other and our skin was so sweaty the grass would stick to us. And the weird thing is that I just I always liked it and I always have. I just I don't know why.
Speaker 2:Well, it sounds like that he was somebody that you really felt a connection with and he was giving you a lot of attention. Is there more to the story that you haven't shared?
Speaker 3:I don't, I don't know. I just right now I need to know how you feel about me, like how do you see me now that you know I have this weird thing?
Speaker 2:I don't see you as any different. I love you. You're my friend. Look, we all have sexual fantasies and they're all about different things and we all like different things, and there's there's nothing weird about you, for that it's. It's just a part of your story and who you are.
Speaker 3:Well, thanks Doug, I might.
Speaker 2:You're a lot more than just your sexual fantasies. I know you, Henry. I know the person that you are. This is, this is just a small part of you.
Speaker 3:Well, I just had to get that out, and there's probably more there that I need help with, but the first step is I just needed somebody to know. Okay.
Speaker 2:Well, henry, thank you so much for sharing that with me, and I want you to know that when or if you're ready to talk about this more or take the next step in looking at this, I just want you to know that I'm going to be here for you when you're ready to do that. Okay, thanks, doug. You're welcome, henry. I love you man.
Speaker 3:Love you too, bro.
Speaker 1:Thank you guys so much. See a lot of guys saying, wow, great approach. And you guys were giving Doug lots of love for how he was responding to Henry and Henry, you were just so relatable, thank you. Now somebody said this sounds like therapy, and that makes sense at one level, because Doug is a therapist.
Speaker 2:It just comes out of me.
Speaker 1:However, so much of this you don't have to be a therapist to do. I mean, he didn't try to go into some deep dive into the possible sexual abuse that could be there or any of the stuff that you might only do if you have a professional who's with you. But even at a friend level, inside husband material, we are holding space for each other, just noticing each other's body language, listening, responding with kindness. You don't have to be a therapist to do that.
Speaker 2:Exactly. You just have to pay attention, pay attention to what the person you're talking to is going through, and pay attention to what they might be feeling or thinking. And what kind of response would you want if you were sharing this and give that response?
Speaker 1:As men. We often don't learn these relational skills when we're boys. Nobody did it for us, and now we have to learn them as adults. When we do this is what I talk about as outgrowing porn. We're growing up, we're becoming mature.
Speaker 2:Yeah, nobody attuned to us. As kids, we lived in a culture, grew up in a culture where we weren't attuned to one another. Part of you growing up and maturing as a man is learning how to attend to other individuals your friends, your coworkers, your spouse, your children is so important to learn and mature in that area.
Speaker 1:So that's why we're doing this. Cam says I don't have this relationship with my therapist. You know, a lot of counselors and therapists are not trained in this area. They don't specialize in this. At Husband Material, we're a movement of men who are all learning this curiosity and compassion thing and it's always going to be imperfect. It doesn't have to be perfect.
Speaker 2:I tell people in therapy all the time that I'm here to jump in the trench with you and together we find a way out. This therapy is not about me pulling you out of the trench. It's about me getting in there and walking with you, and that's what Husband Material's about. It's about helping you to walk and to grow.
Speaker 1:And, by the way, all four of us lead different HMA coaching calls where we do this kind of work and take it a level deeper.
Speaker 2:With nothing scripted, it is all real and raw.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Henry. How was it for you the second time?
Speaker 3:It was nerve-wracking because I didn't get the response I thought I was going to get. It felt good, but still it's like when is this going to turn south? Okay, in a minute he's going to go be perverted, or something like that. Just because that's the usual experience we have, or I've had.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a reason why many of us have not told other people some of our deepest, darkest secrets because deep down we know most places are not equipped to handle this. They're probably going to respond with more of that purity culture approach. We've got quite a few more exercises to do. I want you to know that if you put a question in the Q&A, we are collecting those and we will be answering those at the panel discussion at the end of the conference. Our next scenario is checking in with your small group, especially if it's a poor recovery group that you meet with every week. All four of us will be in this group and we'll be demonstrating the difference between lots of accountability versus lots of attunement. It's not that there's no accountability or no attunement in either of these approaches, but it's just the emphasis. Doug is going to be the small group leader for this one.
Speaker 2:So I'm wondering did you all reach your goals last week? Yeah, I did, you did Good. What was your goal?
Speaker 3:My goal was to not look at porn, and when I felt the urge to do that, to go run a mile.
Speaker 2:Okay, good, and were you successful in doing that? Yes, great. I'm wondering how many people relapsed last week. Jordan, okay, jordan, you relapsed. Then Drew, drew, okay. How many times last week did you guys relapse?
Speaker 1:I was looking at Google images of feet and tickling. It's not really porn, but I kind of feel like that's my version of porn, so it's kind of here, for me to think is that a relapse, or is that just me?
Speaker 2:So you were around by that, huh. Yeah Well that's a relapse. What did you do around that relapse? How many calls did you make?
Speaker 1:I didn't call anyone.
Speaker 2:How helpful was that.
Speaker 1:Well, I know that when I call someone it really helps, but I felt like I wasn't actually going to porn, so I was okay and I didn't even master it.
Speaker 2:I was arousing for you. So what are you going to do different next?
Speaker 1:week. Well, how did you do Doug? How did you do this week?
Speaker 2:I made it great. I didn't relapse at all. I stuck to all my goals. When I got tempted I reached out to five or six guys.
Speaker 1:So you didn't get aroused. Sorry, I was just going off of your thing to me. I'm sorry. Maybe Jordan should talk.
Speaker 2:Well, no, doug, stay with you for a minute, Like you know. What are you going to do? I'm done, I'm done. What do you do? Come on, man, you've got to keep fighting this fight. So what are you going to do different next week? All right, can you at least make it maybe a commitment to reach out to Henry?
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, so Jordan, you relapsed too. Dude what was going on.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I just. I looked at porn again and masturbated.
Speaker 2:And did you think at all? Like before you like unzipped your pants. We had to call somebody.
Speaker 4:I mean, I had to thought.
Speaker 1:You already know the answer to that.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, but you know what guys? We got to call people the minute you start getting triggered. You got to recognize and make those calls.
Speaker 1:All right, we're done. I'm gonna go to the scene, Like you got so into that You're going so hard.
Speaker 2:Channel my inner, like my critic.
Speaker 1:I want everyone to know that Henry was lying.
Speaker 3:And I didn't engage with the rest of the conversation because I didn't want to get found out. But I was lying.
Speaker 2:Doug is the call Nazi.
Speaker 4:I think one guy said, uh, Jordan doesn't want to get picked. I was just like, yep, that was. I was full of shame, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Doug was the self-righteous, seemingly perfect leader. Jordan was the chronic struggler flooded with shame. Drew is the new guy who's super awkward and Henry is the I'm fine guy hiding his relapses. So you can see how this environment breeds comparison, right? You end up kind of ranking yourself with everybody else, so eitherly surprised or shame, stressful or stagnant. You know what else do you notice? Doug was shitting all over them.
Speaker 2:Yes, For real man.
Speaker 4:That's a phrase we use here.
Speaker 1:So it's not bad to check in about your behavior. You just have to know that when you're creating a dynamic like this, it's oftentimes going to be self-defeating. This is the rigid, disengaged family system Rules are more important than relationships and there's very little heart connection.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and it wasn't a safe place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it certainly wasn't safe. You know, I was actually pushing back a little bit and Doug was just overpowering me. I mean, most of the time, we'll keep our feelings to ourselves, because we know that it's not going to go well if we're fully honest with the leader about what we're experiencing in a group which is one of the reasons why, in HMA, we're committed to engaging conflict, because we need to be honest about what's happening for us. Let's go to the alternative option.
Speaker 2:Hey guys, How's everybody doing? I just wonder who'd like to check in first.
Speaker 3:I mean I can go. It's been a crazy week, yeah. I've just had a lot of anxiety trying to get things done getting ready for this conference and there's been so much stuff and it's been crazy yeah.
Speaker 2:I hear a lot of anxiety and maybe even feelings of being overwhelmed. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Henry, thank you so much for all your work on this. I know you've been putting so much heart into it.
Speaker 4:Thank you for sharing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thanks guys.
Speaker 1:You really made a lot of this possible tonight.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you put a lot of work and effort and time into this and it really shows and it's really appreciated.
Speaker 3:Thanks.
Speaker 1:Henry, what do you feel like you need right now?
Speaker 3:I just need to breathe. Honestly, it's just like okay.
Speaker 2:We made it, you made it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we made it. Yeah, lots of late nights, and I'm sure I've forgotten some emails, and so I have to keep from telling myself I'm not a failure, but we're here, we are.
Speaker 4:Yeah, henry, just take a deep breath right now.
Speaker 1:Good, Henry, how are you feeling?
Speaker 3:Oh, much better now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, henry, I really want to just invite you to fill the outcome of all your work, your hard work and all your labor and just take a minute and just take that in.
Speaker 1:Now in a real group. We would either have more time or we would move on to the next person and it would be focused on our emotions. What are you feeling and why Our needs? What do you need right now? What stories are you telling yourself? What's the story behind it? When have you felt this way before? Affirmation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, where do you feel that in your body? What's going on? Your internal sensations?
Speaker 1:Right, and so, even though we didn't really talk about behavior or sobriety, we're dealing with what's really going on underneath, and this is creating a context for connection rather than comparison. This is the difference.
Speaker 3:Well and honestly, those emotions, the anxiety would have led to me acting out in the past.
Speaker 1:Thank you for sharing that. Sounds like you're saying that was part of the cycle.
Speaker 2:And one question I would have asked, Henry, if we had more time here where did your anxiety take you this week that you felt? Where did it take you? Did it lead to other emotions? Did it turn into behavior Like where did it go? How did you experience it?
Speaker 1:For now. I just want all of you to know that this was a real check-in. We did not script this. We just planned to be real and that's what happened. So there are some great tools for check-ins, like the faster scale. I see someone else saying this is like a freestyle Samson meeting and the point is more attunement, heavy on attunement, rather than emphasizing accountability. Okay, this next one is going to start out with just Doug and Henry, and then all of us will come in for the follow-up. What do you do when you're feeling the urge to watch porn? This is the difference between battling your sexuality and befriending your sexuality.
Speaker 2:So these are the different parts inside a person who's struggling to want to act out.
Speaker 1:So Doug is going to be playing the part who just wants to watch porn, and then Henry's going to be playing the part that doesn't want to.
Speaker 2:Okay, Me and I'm so learning. Right now I want to watch that video again. So bad.
Speaker 3:Oh, but I know I shouldn't, I know it won't satisfy me.
Speaker 2:But that feeling is so strong I can barely resist.
Speaker 3:How can I get out of this? I'm not going to go to that website, I'll just. I'll go check email.
Speaker 2:Me, and I've tried hard to stop thinking about what I saw, but it's just like it's calling my name. I just, I just need to go back there.
Speaker 3:I'm just, I'm just going to stop thinking about it. God help me. I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
Speaker 2:Maybe I'll just go watch the video, but I won't masturbate Like I won't even touch myself. I won't jerk off Like I'll just get my fix by just just watching the video. Just one more time.
Speaker 3:Here we go again, back into the addiction.
Speaker 2:Oh hell, it's not even worth it. I'm just gonna turn the video and jerk off and get this over with.
Speaker 1:And see Thank you guys, very realistic. Sounds familiar, right.
Speaker 2:Well, if that wasn't relatable?
Speaker 1:This is what we talk about the frustrating, exhausting battle. What? We resist, persists. As long as you are trying to repress it, it will actually keep growing. Sooner or later it's gonna win.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was totally white knuckling it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Or if you have different colors skin brown knuckling it Right. Yeah, black knuckling it.
Speaker 2:It's just an AA turn.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, trying to deal with reason tactics, and you'll notice there were only two voices here. There are actually some other resources we can tap into when this is happening, because those are the two voices we're typically aware of, but that's not all there is. From an IFS internal family systems perspective, there are some other characters here In addition to Doug, the porn using part, and Henry, the porn avoiding part. Now we're gonna play this out with Jordan and I included. So Jordan is going to be the core self. Now, the concept of the core self could also be just who you really are at the core the image of God in you, or Christ in you, or your identity in Christ. And then I am going to be the inner child, the little boy, the one who is wanting to use the pacifier of porn, because underneath this battle, there's a younger part of me who is running the show. Now we're gonna show you what that looks like when you get beyond the battle into befriending all that is within you. Man, here I am again.
Speaker 2:I'm freaking 40.
Speaker 4:And part of me really wants to watch that video again. I wonder why Today was really stressful. I worked super late and there was that super embarrassing moment where I just wanted to curl up into a ball and disappear but I couldn't. I felt trapped.
Speaker 1:I felt so much shame. I guess it makes a lot of sense that I would feel the need to escape from this.
Speaker 4:I guess it makes a lot of sense that I would feel the need to escape. It reminds me of when I was a teenager doing homework late at night, dreading school the next day. That's when I really started using porn regularly.
Speaker 1:That's how I still feel at work, just dreading it the next day, every day. It's just like school.
Speaker 4:Okay, what do I really need? Right now? I can go for a walk and call a friend.
Speaker 2:I don't want to do that. It's dark, it's cold, my bed is so comfortable, it's so inconvenient to get up and do all that. I could just touch myself a little bit here and I just don't even have to deal with these feelings.
Speaker 3:God help me. I can do all things to Christ, who strengthens me.
Speaker 4:Yeah, maybe I'll just go for a short walk and talk for 10 minutes.
Speaker 2:I hate this stupid healthy connection stuff. I don't hate it.
Speaker 1:I really need connection.
Speaker 4:Yes, we all do. Let's do this.
Speaker 1:And scene. Okay, so to be clear, I was the inner child, jordan was the core self, doug was the firefighter or porn user and Henry was the manager. Now, none of these parts are bad. They all have important things to say. Right, the important thing is that Jordan was listening and he was leading us and loving us, rather than trying to get rid of us. I mean Doug was saying that I mean he's feeling really horny, that this is really attractive. Okay, that's helpful information. I mean. I think it's good to know. There's something to learn there.
Speaker 2:There's some feedback, right yeah?
Speaker 1:Let's be curious about that. And I also really appreciated, like Doug's, honesty right. I hate this healthy connection stuff, thank you. Sometimes I feel that way too yeah. How much?
Speaker 4:work. It is a lot of work to get to that place when you're feeling so much emotion within you and you don't want to reach out in a healthy, good way, but you just want to pull in and and either give in to the emotion or act out it's. It can just be hard.
Speaker 1:One of the most important things that Jordan did was at the very beginning he differentiated from Doug. He said part of me wants to watch that video right now. That's huge yeah.
Speaker 4:You know, I think of my own story and where I've come from. In my struggles, and especially with same sex attraction, it can feel so intense, like this is who you are and it's only a part of you. Right, it's not all that you are. And I think just being able to distinguish that in my own mind of like, okay, what, what is going on within me right now? What, what do I? What do I need? What am I feeling? Why am I drawn to this? It's just such a better way of dealing with it rather than here it is again. I don't want to deal with this and then eventually giving in yet again, right, and in this model.
Speaker 1:We did incorporate spirituality Right. We still needed Henry to say God, help me, I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me. I mean, that's that can be supportive and maybe that was the push that you needed to go outside for a walk, yeah, but underneath this battle, you have to learn how to listen to the inner child, you have to get in touch with him. And there's not just one inner child, there's really a whole orphanage within us that believe things like I'm all alone, I'm bad.
Speaker 1:No one will ever love me. I'll never be good enough. I'll never get over this.
Speaker 2:All those I have to be perfect, right yeah?
Speaker 1:And that's going more into the manager. But we'll teach you more about IFS another time. This just shows you a little bit of you know the difference of of what can happen within you when you feel that urge. So Henry actually left so that he could get ready for his next role. Yes, oh, my goodness, I can't believe we're doing this.
Speaker 1:And this next scenario we will be showing you different approaches to being sexually attracted to another person, in this case, a trans person. This is a real experience that I have had. And Henry is going to be Chris Slash Liz, and Doug is going to be my sexual attraction and Jordan is going to be a wise guide Group leader or counselor or HMA friend. And we're going to show you the difference between fear and shame versus curiosity. And we're going to show you the difference between fear and shame versus curiosity and compassion. And, by the way, it's normal to feel all those things when fear and shame are driving us. This is what it's going to look like. Let's say I am going to the grocery store and here is Chris slash Liz. Oh gosh, okay, I'm going to avoid him. Her who, I just need to go down.
Speaker 3:Can I help you?
Speaker 1:Wow, no, thank you.
Speaker 2:There's something about her, I don't know that I just I'm kind of feeling kind of attracted to I think. That's that kind of look like that guy. Chris, that's like Liz now.
Speaker 1:Well, clearly you have to be brave to allow yourself to go through that process, and I really admire that. It's kind of interesting to me, but I'm such a pervert for liking this and wanting to know more about her.
Speaker 2:but I can't, because that's just going to take me right back, look at how like free she feels to like just express herself and like she must really be in touch with her, like sexuality.
Speaker 1:That that's really something so attractive about that. I want to ask her about that, but I'm not going to. I have to feel nothing. You know what? I didn't even see her today. No, I'm just going to. I'm just going to ignore this.
Speaker 2:Man, I think I'm getting an erection right here in the grocery store.
Speaker 1:OK, I'm not feeling anything. And scene OK. What did you guys witness there? Yeah, denial Shutting down.
Speaker 4:In California.
Speaker 1:Look away, look away Right. Avoid this person at all costs. Plus, shame myself for being attracted, pretending I feel nothing. It's fight, flight and freeze. Ok, bounce your eyes Right. There's another bit of the purity culture.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:These are just bounce your eyes right off of them, which is actually objectifying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm trying to humanizing.
Speaker 1:So let's, let's do a different approach. This is based on curiosity and compassion. I still might feel fear and shame, but I'm going to respond differently. So here we go, coming into the grocery store, and there's Liz.
Speaker 2:Man. Look at her hair and that lipstick. Like they feel so free to express herself like that's interesting.
Speaker 1:I feel that way, hmm.
Speaker 3:Can I help you?
Speaker 1:Hi Liz. Yeah, actually I'm looking for the cereal.
Speaker 3:That's on aisle six.
Speaker 4:OK.
Speaker 2:I want to know so much more about her sexuality and how she, like, really expresses herself. I wonder what she'd say.
Speaker 1:You know, it makes a lot of sense that I'm feeling these things, but I wonder why, and I feel like it goes back to Parts of myself that I didn't feel Confident to show other people for fear of not being masculine or not being seen as a man.
Speaker 2:I wonder what made her choose that bright red lipstick.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. Ok, Doug, I'm putting you on mute. Hello, little Drew, how are you doing? Yeah, that was kind of scary and interesting and fascinating too. You were like simultaneously drawn to her, yet repulsed by her yet, and she seems like a really cool person too. I feel like it's probably safe for us to go talk about this with Jordan. You know we can talk to her, but we don't need to interact all the time or become close to her. It might not be safe for us, but let's go talk to Jordan. Hey, Jordan, hey.
Speaker 4:Drew.
Speaker 1:Hey man, I just got like really triggered in a grocery store.
Speaker 4:Yeah, tell me about that.
Speaker 1:Well, I saw Liz, who used to be Chris, and it just brought up a lot of inner conflict for me.
Speaker 4:Yeah, what did that bring up?
Speaker 1:Could I just come over right now and could we hang out for a bit? I feel like I need that safety right now. Yeah, sure, come on over man. Thanks, man, ok, and seeing. So I realized that might not have resonated with everybody. And at the same time, I mean, you know, there are very real situations when you find yourself attracted to somebody maybe a really attractive woman at your church or a really attractive man in your small group and in those moments, instead of just avoiding and ignoring or pretending like we feel nothing, what we can do is a little bit of what I did. Why say I said hello, right, humor, rather than just bouncing my eyes, engaging a little bit in relationship Notice what I noticed Putting Doug on mute when he was too, too forceful, and just getting myself the support that I needed to be safe, rather than going down the path to sexually acting out. I think there's a lot of questions in the chat about, like how to metaphorically mute Doug.
Speaker 1:What would you say?
Speaker 2:Well, if we're going to look at parts work, I would. I would hear what Doug has to say and then maybe ask him to just step back for just a second. Right, let's hear from the other parts. Yeah, what would they like to say?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's a great tool that IFS teaches and that's part of what what you can do in order to validate and affirm and also manage that part of you. Henry, what was that like for you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's interesting being on the other side. We had a trans man that grew up in the youth group that I led, visited our Christmas Eve service and has gone through a couple of different names. It was Jenny growing up and then Jay, but now it goes by Jason and it's like what do you call them? Being on the other side of that and thinking how do they feel, everybody looking at them, trying to figure out what's going on, right?
Speaker 1:So in order to really live out our Christian faith in the situation, it requires more than just avoiding lust. You can be avoiding lust, but still not be really loving.
Speaker 3:Yeah, in the first scenario you just ignored me.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, and it doesn't mean I have to come close to you or become friends with you, but I'm going to treat you with dignity and respect as a human being, and part of the reason why we did a trans person for this is just because that's so taboo and for some guys, if we did a woman to be the attractive person, then we didn't want to alienate the guys who would be more attracted to men, and if we did a man, we didn't want to alienate the guys who were only attracted to women. I think our heart behind this is that everybody has a non-wisual attraction of some kind and we need to normalize that and be able to process it, like you just saw. Okay, we've got one more role playing example of this for you Celebrating six months without porn, when you reach a new milestone of time without porn. A purity culture approach would be more about behavior modification focused on that and outgrowing porn. We're focused on becoming mature. Who am I becoming? Am I learning and growing, not just how long is my streak? So all of us will be demonstrating some different attitudes toward what might be your reaction to making it that far.
Speaker 1:Six months without porn. Six months without porn man. Maybe I'm finally over this. Oh, it would be so nice if I don't have to do more work. Yeah, I think I've got it. I think I can step back from some of the stuff I've been doing. I mean, I've arrived, I've got this, it's under control, I can just cruise.
Speaker 4:Man, it's pretty incredible that I finally hit six months man. Maybe, maybe my wife will let me back in and, dude, I hope to have sex again. Oh yeah, maybe that's what will happen, come on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, man, I barely made it. There's so many times I was just about to grab myself and go to town and I don't know if I can make it much longer. I'm scared I'm going to relapse. Six months is the longest I've ever been without porn or masturbating since I started. Man, I'm just, I'm really scared. I'm scared I'm just going to the dam's going to break and I'm going to relapse tomorrow.
Speaker 2:Wow, I've made it six months. I'm just really grateful that I've been able to be here and arrive at this point and I can just think of so many ways that I've grown over this six months. And I know I'm not there, I know there's so much more to be done, but I did it and I want to be proud of myself for the six months that I made it and I want to just keep putting the same energy into this and I just, I really want to approach this with some real gratitude.
Speaker 1:And scene. So I was the guy who has become complacent and overconfident. Jordan was the guy who's entitled saying, oh, maybe I can earn the right to sex again. He's still ultimately self-centered and I'm self-centered too and feeling like, ok, I've checked the box of freeing for porn. Henry was really scared of relapsing and overwhelmed and and still flooded with some of those feelings. And Doug is is both grateful and also humble in acknowledging that. You know this is a process. So what did you guys think of that? Behavior modification versus becoming mature? Dave says gratitude must supplant pride. When we're having victory, love that the motivation is not performance, it's growth. Doug's perspective is something to appreciate. That's that's kind of what we're going for. Doug's approach is becoming mature, for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had. I had somebody ask me the other day I mean, I've been a psychologist for 25 years. Somebody asked, do you still go to therapy? And I said, yeah, I go to my own therapy. And they were like, why on earth do you go to therapy? Because I don't ever want to stop growing. I don't want to ever stop learning more about myself and who I am and the parts of me that are in there and that exist, and I want to remain curious and grow.
Speaker 1:So, in other words, this is so much bigger than freedom from certain behaviors. It's freedom for bigger life in which we are living in alignment with our true identity as God's beloved sons. We're focused on what's happening in our hearts more than what's happening in our day to day behavior. So, gentlemen, these have been six different demonstrations. Which one was most powerful for you? Which one helped you the most? People had very different experiences. For some people, the first two were more powerful and for some people, the trans one was more powerful and the recovery group was more powerful. Awesome, these are just different examples of what it looks like to take an approach of outgrowing porn rather than purticulture. So now you have some imagination for what it practically looks like to live out these teachings Instead of just theory. You see the difference. You hear the difference, bravo, bravo to Doug Henry and Jordan. Thank you, guys so much.
Speaker 3:You're welcome, Drew.
Speaker 1:You're welcome this was all an experiment. Thank you for playing along with us and sticking with us. Yes, thank you. You have after some people left. I bet there's something that you'll remember from this. I bet there's something you'll never forget.
Speaker 2:It's probably going to be Henry and the red lipstick for me.
Speaker 1:I'm going to have a nightmare about that tonight.
Speaker 3:I'm going to turn into a sexual being, oh man.
Speaker 2:Liz.
Speaker 4:We can't unsee things.
Speaker 2:Seeing Henry with hair. For me I think it was when I was the harsh leader and then I flipped roles to the really caring leader. There was even just a shift in my body that I felt it's just so much more therapeutic and helpful to take this other approach than just all this accountability lingo.
Speaker 1:It feels different in our bodies, doesn't it?
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:It opens us up, it melts us in a beautiful way to take this approach based on kindness, and that's really what Chris Bruno is going to be leading us into in the next session Going into the story behind your porn. It's a really powerful deep dive into your past, into those stories that are underneath our sexual experiences and patterns, so I would strongly recommend coming to that. We are practicing this outgrowing porn approach every week in HMA. We're doing psychodrama in HMA, we're doing IFS, we're doing transformation prayer. We're going through a video course that walks you through step by step, what it looks like to understand, triggers your fantasies, your story, and pursue healing and redemption. I would love to have you guys in there at joinhmacom. It's a really unique program. I don't know anything else like it. It's Christ-centered, trauma-focused and taking this kind of thing online, and we are all a part of it.
Speaker 1:Thank you for coming to session one. Thank you guys so much. Always remember you are God's beloved Son. In you he is thrilled, delighted, overjoyed, well pleased. I'm proud of you and I'm proud of you. Way to go, we did session one. This has been such a good start to the conference. Wow, that was awesome.