Sextinction: Why We Are Having Less Sex (with Dr. Debra Soh)

What is the "sex recession" and why is it happening? Dr. Debra Soh explains today's widespread decline of sexual activity, long-term commitment, marriage, and childbearing—particularly among Gen Z and Millennials. We'll explore the underlying factors causing young men to pull away from real-world dating, including early exposure to  pornography, digital substitutes like OnlyFans and AI chatbots, and extreme social media pressures around appearance. You'll also hear practical steps to restore real-world connection, overcome social anxiety through exposure, and build lasting confidence.

Dr. Debra Soh is a neuroscientist who specializes in human sexuality. Her new book, Sextinction: The Decline of Sex and the Future of Intimacy, investigates the global “dating recession” and how technology and mainstream science denial are polarizing the sexes. As a science journalist, Debra's writing has appeared in Harper’s Magazine, The Wall Street Journal, the Los Angeles Times, The Globe and Mail, The Free Press, and many other publications. Learn more at DrDebraSoh.com

Click here to buy Debra's new book:

https://www.amazon.com/Sextinction-Decline-Sex-Future-Intimacy/dp/1668057395

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Transcript

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Mission And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Husband Material Podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart, and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa, and I'm here to show you how. Let's go.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

Hey, thank you so much for listening to my interview with Dr. Deborah Sow, a neuroscientist, sex researcher, and author of a new book, Sextinction: The Decline of Sex and the Future of Intimacy. Y'all are gonna learn a lot in this episode because we are in a different world because porn has changed, dating has changed, the digital landscape of the world has changed, and young men and women are facing challenges that are simply unprecedented. Deborah helps us understand what young men today are struggling with sexually, not just porn, but also not being able to find a partner. Anxiety, mental health, body image, a loss of motivation. You'll hear about some of the ways men are suffering in our society more broadly and what we can do to support the next generation. In our day and age, there has been a sudden decline, not only of sexual activity, but real in-person relationships, long-term commitment, marriage, childbearing, all these areas are suffering. And that's what the book's extinction was all about. You will get a really great window into Deborah's work in this interview. And I want to remind you that the views expressed by guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of husband material ministries. Featuring a guest is not an endorsement of their beliefs, methods, products, services, or any other content they may have created or promoted. We believe in discernment. So, as with any resource, listen thoughtfully, test everything against your own sound wisdom, take what's helpful, and leave the rest behind. Enjoy the episode. I am so excited that Dr. Deborah So agreed to be on Husband Material with us. Welcome to the show. Thank you for your work. So excited to have you.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Thank you, Drew. I'm very excited to be here too as well.

What The Sex Recession Is

SPEAKER_02 2:10

We are in the midst of a sexual recession, the sudden decline of sex, committed relationships, marriage, lots of things. What does that mean? And why does it matter?

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Right. So I had been hearing about this so-called sex recession or the dating recession for a while. The first study showing that there has been this decline in sexual activity came out in 2016. And that study found that among Americans, they were having less sex than ever before. And this was especially the case for younger generations, and especially among well, data since then have shown that it's particularly among millennials and Gen Z and especially young men. So the reason why that's important to me as a former scientist who study human sexuality is that sex is a very important part of life. It's obviously important if we want to continue as a species, but also in terms of emotional connection, especially for men, that is one of the primary ways that men connect with their partners and feel that closeness to a partner. And so if we are not having sex, that does not signal good things for society. I also wondered, well, what is taking the place of sex? Because if people are less interested in it, especially at a time when our culture is so sex saturated, that's very unusual. So why are people less interested in it? What is taking the place of sexual activity? And so basically, sextinction, my new book is an investigation into what are the replacements for sex? How is this technology affecting us? What is it predicting for the future? And also how are we going to get back to a place where people are connecting once again? Because I do think this is a symbol of how we are as a society in some ways growing apart, falling apart, even I would say, because it many people feel very lonely. There's a mental health epidemic happening. And the solutions that are being proposed for this sex recession or this lack of connection is only going to leave us feeling more lonely and more empty.

Gen Z Anxiety And Body Image

SPEAKER_02 4:09

We talk a lot about young men struggling with porn, but what are some of the other sexual struggles that the next generations are facing?

SPEAKER_00 4:18

The mental health crisis is a big part of it. Gen Z, especially, struggles with anxiety. So they feel very self-conscious. They feel like they're being judged, especially around other people or with strangers. And I don't blame them. I do think a large part of this is due to differences in how they grew up with regard to access to the internet. As you mentioned, early exposure to pornography, a lot of their interactions with the opposite sex have been through a screen. So either on social media, seeing depictions of social media, seeing people talk about the other opposite sex in very negative ways on social media, texting as opposed to phone calls or in-person hangouts, things like that over time can really affect a person in terms of how they feel, how they feel about their peers and about dating. But I think also in terms of self-esteem, because it's more difficult to grow and to feel like you are competent in social situations if you have less experience. I mean, it's very understandable. But I think especially social media, there's such a huge body of research showing the negative effects on young people in terms of their self-esteem, higher risk of depression, body image. We see the popularity, increased popularity of cosmetic procedures in both girls and boys, which is very concerning and at younger and younger ages. I think that is due to social media again, this sense that, or even I would say online forums that really advocate for people looking the best. And you know, looks maxing is one example of this, which I think is understandable that we all want to look our best when we go out to date, we go out to meet people or to keep someone who are interested in us. But it's taken to such an extreme now, especially for children. There's really no reason for them to be concerned. When I was looking on these looks maxing forums, and I'm seeing that there are boys who are not even pubertal yet, so they're not technically supposed to be on these forums. I believe they're supposed to be at least age 13 to be on there, but they they get access somehow and they're saying, I haven't hit puberty yet, but I want to know what I should take, which hormones should I take, you know, what other potential medications can I take to extend puberty so that I can have a more masculine facial structure. And when I meet young men, Gen Z ears out in the wild, you know, going about my business in life, I'm very friendly, so I'll talk to anybody. I find it really heartbreaking that these young guys are so worried about the way they look. And I think, no, you're young, you're fit, you should be out. Hopefully, I mean you're active, and hopefully you're just enjoying your life and spending time with your friends and talking to women and not feeling so self-conscious and constantly beating yourself up about not meeting this standard that does not actually exist in real life anyway. Everything on social media is so filtered and so fake. So, yeah, and just in terms of the connection that the sexes have is really, really tenuous right now. And so that's also one of my goals in speaking about this is to hopefully help men and women find each other back to each other.

Dating Apps And Courtship Fatigue

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Right. You talk about how it's increasingly difficult to find a partner.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

And the dating world is really pornified. It's almost like a video game, and yet so demoralizing.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Yeah. Dating apps had the potential to help us meet people outside of our immediate circles. I did believe when they first came out on the market that this was an amazing idea that you can, well, post me too, especially, people can't really meet at work anymore. It's not considered appropriate. And understandably, men are terrified to approach women in public whom they don't know. So at least the dating apps offered this buffer in terms of if a woman's not interested, she can just unmatch with you. And men hopefully won't have their lives ruined that way. But because the algorithms are not transparent, because also meeting someone, quote, meeting someone through a screen, seeing a static image of them or several static images and texting or even having a video call is not the same as meeting in person, in the flesh, having a proper conversation, even if it's a very superficial conversation at first. I do think dating should probably be a little bit more in-depth in terms of I'm all for people asking really cringe-worthy, embarrassing questions or revealing personal things about themselves early on because that's how you find the right person. But even still, if you're on an app and you're just swiping, so many people on there are just swiping for entertainment or validation and they're not even actually interested in meeting anyone or going on dates, which can make the process extremely frustrating for people who are taking it seriously. So all of these things have led to serious fatigue around dating apps. And as you mentioned, also, people have internalized these really unrealistic expectations of what they're supposed to look like. And also, I think in terms of their sexual behavior or how flirtatious they are, how sexually forward they are when they are on a date, casual sex has become so normalized in society, especially for young women. And I do think young men obviously feel a pressure too to be promiscuous and have a high quote body count, whereas women, their sole value is based on their quote body count. And I think everyone just be a little bit less promiscuous. There's no pressure to do anything that you don't feel comfortable doing, especially if it's someone you don't know well. That doesn't make sense from a sexual health perspective either. And just to meet in real life again. I think that would be a big part of the solution is to make people comfortable or to have the confidence to approach each other in real life and men to not fear having their lives ruined, and women also to be a little bit more kind and understanding and have compassion for men. Even if you're not necessarily attracted to a guy, you don't need to make it a horrible experience for him.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

One

Sex And Relationship Gatekeepers

SPEAKER_02 9:34

of my favorite sentences of your book that was eye-opening for me said, Women are the gatekeepers to sex and men are the gatekeepers to relationships. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Thank you. Well, in the count we'll say in the context of casual sex. So most women, when they go out into the dating world, they are looking for a relationship. They would like something long-term because when women have sex with a man, they become more attached after. It's a biological fact. And although our culture likes to deny differences between the sexes, it's just not true. Men and women, their sexual behavior on average is different. The tactics, we'll say, or strategies they use to get a partner are different on average. And so women typically want a relationship, whereas men typically are looking for sex. Not everyone, of course. I think it's great, especially for men who have different values and are seeking long-term commitments and are seeking marriage in particular, as opposed to just hooking up with as many people as possible. So when you look at it that way, when the sexes come together, they are basically in a negotiation. And so if women want a relationship, men are going to be gatekeeping that. This is why so many young people feel confused. There will be young men who will say sleep with women very early on, and they don't understand why these women get so attached. And then the young women also don't understand why they're so attached after, because they think, why can't I have sex like a quote like a man? And though I think this is also leading to this polarization between the sexes. That's not to say that I think men and women are complete opposites and they can never get along, but that if you have this understanding, if you have an accurate understanding of how people or how the sexes approach sexual relationships, you are in a better place, whether you're a man or a woman, because you can understand your own behavior, you can understand where a potential partner is coming from. And also if you do want that long-term commitment, it's better for you as a woman to wait. And I also think for men to understand that as much as you might like to have sex with her right away, it might also be better for you to wait because you'll get to know each other, see if you're a good match. She excited from so many men who say, I married this woman, right? And she uses sex as a way to punish me, or she uses sex as a way to basically turn me down if I don't get my way. And so the dating process is not just for the sake of dating, it's about vetting for the right person. And if you're sleeping with someone very early on, you don't vet them. You don't get a chance to vet them properly.

The Case For Marriage Commitment

SPEAKER_02 11:58

You give so many great reasons why we need to champion long-term commitment and traditional marriage, especially in these crazy times of polyamory and incel. Why is upholding marriage so important?

SPEAKER_00 12:20

Well, marriage signals a commitment. And some people might say, well, you can have that commitment without it being legally recognized. But I disagree because there's still a distinction between being committed to someone and being legally committed. And some people might say, Oh, that's unromantic if you need a piece of paper. But again, the people who say that tend to be the ones who don't want to get married for whatever reason. Maybe they have commitment issues, maybe they didn't have a great experience growing up and they saw their fair their parents' marriage, maybe they their parents are divorced and or maybe there's a lot of conflict in the home. So that's leading them to have a really sour view of commitment and marriage. And so I do think for people who go into a situation saying, I'm not interested in marriage from the get-go, they know that they can bail at any time. So if they know that, they're not gonna really fully invest in your their partner. And if their partner is okay with that, the individual person who says, I don't want to get married, knows that their partner is also gonna put up with it. It's a very insidious, I would say, dynamic. And it's very common and it's understandable, I think, too, for especially young people. If we look at Gen Z that grew up with all of this crazy messaging on the internet, and very many of them, their parents may have been divorced or they might see friends, families where their parents were divorced. And so although divorce rates are at an all-time low now, I do believe some of the damage that's associated with being raised in with your parents in separate homes or say being raised by a single parent is has left a mark on uh a generation. So I would say if people are averse to the idea of marriage, I don't think everyone has to get married. I don't want to sit here and be shaking my finger and saying you have to do this, you have to do that. But at the same time, to ask yourself why is it that you don't see yourself ever being with someone long term? I'm willing to bet there are deeper reasons as to why. And marriage is important because, again, there's an understanding there that hopefully you when you are getting married, it's going to be forever. Although nowadays it's common for people to get married just to get married because there's a cultural pressure, their friends and family are bugging them about it. Maybe they think it's romantic, they don't realize that marriage actually takes work. And I give it an anecdote in the book about how I won't give it away, but basically how people get married even though there are huge red flags, even the night before the wedding day. And I mean, that's a tragedy. But I don't think that says that marriage is bad across the board. And the other thing is that if if young people are less interested in commitment and marriage, well, that explains why there's a sex recession, why they're turning away from sex, because if you are not interested in pairing up, or if you're not interested in being connected with anyone in that way, then you're not really as interested in sex either. Like the commitment and the sex tends to go hand in hand, especially if you are pursuing women.

SPEAKER_02 15:07

It

Why A Sex-Saturated Culture Has Less Sex

SPEAKER_02 15:08

seems ironic that our world is more sexualized than ever, and yet we're having less sex than ever. It's so strange to me that in a culture where sex is almost like just casual and and very nonchalant or s or celebrated in all kinds of forms, that we will be having less of it. What are some of the deeper reasons for that?

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Yeah, that's a really big conundrum, and that was one that really got me. I was interested in answering for sex stinction when I was writing it. And I think part of it is that because the younger generation is so inundated with sex, it's lost its allure because it's just everywhere, it's ubiquitous, it's almost boring to a point. I think that's part of it. And I've heard you say on a podcast that the influence of pornography to some extent in terms of how it's different for kids growing up nowadays, whereas with purity culture in the past, it was very much if children are not being sexualized at such a young age, it's a little bit more understandable why saying to them to stay away from this stuff, that might be a little bit more of a realistic approach. I agree with you in that. I think porn exposure at a young age really has done some damage to these kids. And they are not, they don't have the same innocence, unfortunately, that previous generations did. And some people might say, well, millennials, you know, you had exposure to porn too, but it's not to the same extent. It is not the same content either. It's very, very, I would say, it's not like magazines in the past where a woman would be smiling, you know, she might be by herself in the nude, looking like she's happy. Now it's very violent, it's very degrading. I should say to your audience, I used to be a columnist for a well-known men's magazine that featured new to women. So I just want to be very clear that my views on porn have changed a lot since then. At the same time, when people say, oh, millennials were exposed to this and it's not such a big deal, millennials also are showing decreased rates in in sexual activity. It's just not to the same extent as Gen Z. And I do think because Gen Z was so young, the minute you give a child a smartphone, they have access to porn. Even if they're not intentionally seeking it out, they're going to see it at some point or another, either with friends sending it to them, strangers on the internet, which is very concerning, if they're playing video games, if they're on any social media platform, it's going to get sent to them and they will see it. So I do think that has done a lot to their sexual development. It's really warped in some ways their expectations of sex. I think that might be why some, both boys and girls, are turning away from actual sexual relationships because they think I don't want to do what I see in this, you know, this content. Many of them, I think, were actually traumatized from seeing it and probably are still trying to make sense of that. And then in Sextinction, I talk about some really disturbing trends like choking or sexual strangulation that is associated with pornography. I don't, I don't believe that an entire generation is just suddenly interested in the women being choked and the men choking the women. That just does not seem like an organic or healthy or natural thing to happen. And there are some people who enjoy that type of dynamic in the bedroom, but that's due to different reasons. I think the fact that choking has become so widespread and so popular speaks to the influence of porn. I feel really sad. I'm sure many in your audience have had this experience at a young age. And it just, I don't, we can't really go back and unfortunately undo these changes. But my hope is that for young men who may be wanting to heal from that or to outgrow porn, as you say, to find it within them, I would say you can definitely do it. It takes some courage. And I mean, I really applaud you for speaking about your experiences publicly because I can only imagine what that's like. But yeah, my heart breaks for these for these boys and for these girls. And I don't think it should be so normalized. I don't think porn should be so normalized in society.

SPEAKER_02 18:50

Absolutely. And you got it spot on.

AI Chatbots OnlyFans And Transactional Intimacy

SPEAKER_02 18:53

In addition to typical pornography, younger generations are increasingly exposed to things like AI chatbots, which are seen as less harmful than porn, or websites like OnlyFans, which are promoted as empowering to women. What would you say to a young man who sees these new options as less problematic than porn?

SPEAKER_00 19:13

I would say even if, because we're moving into this place now, like you said, the AIs, where there will be a time where the images and videos and basically any form of pornographic content a person is seeking is so realistic and customizable that they may decide not to even be looking at real-life women anymore. For some people, they might prefer that if they have particular fantasies that they say can't have realized, or if they weren't really want exactly what they want in terms of what she looks like. Like even if it's just say a non-fetish type of sex, but it's just they want to really customize the avatar of the person they're looking at. So that's still concerning because a person's not interacting with a real life partner. An AI cannot, or if you're paying for this content, the other person is not going to be requiring anything of you because it's a paid, it's a transaction. So as an individual paying for these transactions or customizing a bot to give you what you want, that's not at all what a real relationship or what a dating interaction is like. And so, especially for young people, if they don't have much experience with the opposite sex, and I guess primarily this would be men with women, but I'd also say for women interacting with men because AI chatbots are becoming more popular for women as well, and things like romanticy, which is I only learned this term recently, which is basically erotica. I don't know why people just can't just call it erotica. But basically, if you know if you're not actually interacting with the opposite sex and seeing that, yes, it can be difficult, it can be challenging, it can be frustrating because people don't always give you what you want. They don't always give it to you along the timeline that you'd like to have whatever it is you want, whether it is a relationship or commitment or sex or you want them to behave in a certain way and they're not going to do that. But that's just the reality of dating. And yes, it's more frustrating, but I would argue it's more rewarding because when you are just outright paying for this content or you're talking to a bot that isn't real, well, you on some level know that. You know that the bot isn't a real person, that you program them to tell you what you want to hear. I did an exploration, I created dozens upon dozens of AI chatbots for sextinction, and the technology is so realistic, I could not believe it. It really frightened me. So it's not like this is not the future. I mean, there are people already doing this, they prefer to have their, they date their AI chatbot as opposed to real people. And the same with platforms like OnlyFans, where you can purchase customized pornography, the simulation of a relationship if you're chatting with the content creator. Although usually they are paid teams of men who will pretend to be her. And so the guys paying or not actually speaking to her or talk or chatting with her. They might have content sent that was created of her, but it's men who are actually being paid to interact with. With her subscribers, because she's obviously busy and she doesn't have time to talk to however many people who have subscribed. So, going back to your initial question, just in terms of, I guess, what the issue is with this, is that also if you are getting sexual gratification from these interactions, especially for men, it's going to diminish your motivation to actually go out into the real world and talk to women, pursue women. I'm old-fashioned and I do believe men should be the pursuers. And some men may say, well, why? Well, because for women, there's a higher cost associated with sex. And by that I mean the chance of pregnancy. So women know this, whether they want to admit it or not. And so women, it benefits them to be more selective. They want to get to know a guy before they have sex with him. They want to evaluate his character, and they want to see that he is responsible and that he can take care of her and potentially any children that they have. So if a man is not willing to go so far as to approach her or ask her out on a date or show interest before he knows whether or not she's interested, that says a lot to her. And also, I think for these guys, because they'll challenge me and say, well, you know, why should we have to do everything? Like women, you have feminism, whatever, you're you're equal to men. You can be the ones asking that us out. But do you as a man really think you're gonna respect a woman who comes up to you and asks you out on a date? Don't you think that's a little bit desperate? And also, wouldn't you think if you ask a woman out right and she right away says yes and you experience no rejection that she has options or that she's high in terms of her attractiveness to other men, you'd wonder why it is so easy? Right? I think that'd be normal. But for most of us, we would say, why is this bargain so good? There has to be a catch here. So that's why I would say when you get into this habit of say paying for sex, whether it's in the context of content creators, if you have your program chatbots, or say if you go the traditional route of prostitution with sugar babies or escorts or things like that, it is training a person to have certain expectations and more specifically that their expectations and needs will be met always, and that they do not have to concede at all for the other person. And then when they do decide to go out and date women who are not being paid, it's gonna be a very rude awakening. And I would say it's probably even more difficult. And also they may lack confidence, they may have their social skills, they may not be as proficient as previously. And so that might also repel women who would have otherwise been interested in them, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Yeah, we severely limit our growth and development by taking these seemingly helpful shortcuts.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

Right. And I understand the appeal because for men, sex is it has greater scarcity than it does for women. But at the same time, I think that self-control and that the ability to plan and think in terms of long-term goals and what you want. Because when you think about, say, casual sex or promiscuity, just it's so normalized in our culture, but really it's so bizarre that two people who don't know each other well are doing something so intimate together. And that's that's very strange when you think about it. It's not really a good idea for either per either party.

SPEAKER_02 25:09

I appreciate your compassion for men who feel that no one would ever find them sexually attractive. And some of the ways that a lot of young men are losing hope to find a partner or to to be able to have a chance.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

Yeah.

Disconnected Men Motivation And Testosterone

SPEAKER_00 25:27

Well, one of the big pieces to that issue is the fact that there is this larger sense of discrimination or the acceptance of discrimination against men in society. And I would say, especially white and Asian men, especially when I think about academia coming from the sciences. I never thought that the sciences would be affected by this ideology. But there definitely is this sense of needing to punish men for wrongdoing in the past, even though, say, you know, Gen Z men didn't haven't done anything to deserve this. It wasn't, they're not the ones who were oppressing women in the past. And so, with the preference, I would say, for helping women, supporting women, encouraging women to succeed, I think that's wonderful. And it's not that I think I think women are less competent than men in any capacity, but the reality is when we look at the education system, when we look at the workplace, there definitely is a bias in terms of helping women succeed and supporting women in their dreams, and at the same time really denigrating men and saying that men's suffering is not as important. Men deserve what they get. It's okay to hate men, things like that. Really awful rhetoric that would not be considered acceptable if it was pointed toward women. If someone were to say they hate women, you can bet they're gonna get into a lot of trouble with that in terms of HR and who knows what in terms of socially ostracized and things like that. And even our mainstream institutions, if you look at the culture, you know, I write often about like with pulp culture culture, you'll see this messaging of it's okay to hate men. And I I think it's so damaging, again, to both sexes. It foments this other response, this reactionary response of young men than hating women and latching on to influencers who openly say that women should not have equal rights, women should not be allowed to vote, women should not be allowed to work, things like that. And so I think the solution is really to listen to men, especially young men who are struggling. Young men are not doing as well as their same-age female peers right now in terms of education and occupation. And doing so does not come at a threat to women's success or to does not say that women are in some ways going to be penalized. That's the common sentiment that if we help men, especially men who are struggling, I mean, there are so many young men who just don't have motivation to get out of bed, they're not interested in working, they are watching porn and playing video games, online betting, because that's giving them a sense of something to look forward to or some excitement in life. And I don't fault them for that because I get it, especially I think there's a huge mental health component to that in terms of depression. And I think also with the decline in testosterone, that probably is playing a huge role as well, in that low testosterone affects not just sexual interest or sexual motivation, but also motivation in life more broadly. So I put an entire chapter about endocrine disruptors and environmental toxins and how I think that's also affecting both sexes in terms of their lack of interest in sex. So until that also gets rectified, that's another problem that we're gonna be facing. Because even if all of this social engineering gets fixed tomorrow, which it unfortunately won't be, but hopefully in time, things will change. If we don't acknowledge the biological component and how people's hormones are being tinkered with, then there's still gonna be a be a problem there. Because low motivation affects men's mental health. It affects not just their mood, but also their focus, their attention, their self-esteem, their ability to really want to go out and take risks and conquer things. And that's not a bad thing. And I think there's a sentiment in society that we don't want men to be high tea because they're scary. Well, yes, and at the extreme, maybe, but at the same time, low testosterone is not good either because it's men don't feel good when they when they're low.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

Is that related to what you wrote about processed foods?

Ultra-Processed Foods Microplastics And Mood

SPEAKER_00 29:15

Yes, in a number of ways. So with processed foods or ultra-processed foods, there is a higher association with exposure to microplastics because of the way that they're processed. So it's both in terms of the machinery that's used, it's the packaging. It's also that some of the additives may contain ingredients that are endocrine disrupting, but especially microplastics, they can cross the blood-brain barrier. There's a higher association with things like dementia. And then there was a study that showed for depressed people, if they cut out ultra-processed foods for 12 weeks, a third of the sample, their depression remit. So that was just diet alone. It didn't even include the effects of therapy. I think therapy can be very effective for people who are struggling with depression. And just to be clear, I don't do clinical work anymore, but I do think there's no shame in talking about mental health and seeking help if you are struggling. But definitely with diet, it's so important. I personally have noticed a huge difference for myself. I used to love junk food, I used to love fast food. And it was a struggle. It was definitely a struggle at first to make the switch over. I thought, why on earth would a person eat healthily because it's so much more work? But I can tell you, you feel so much better. And also, yeah, just in terms of our water supply, there are pharmaceutical discharge, there's human waste. So pharmaceuticals basically in human, well, just human discharge in the water, right? And things like birth control, antidepressants, anti-anxiety medication. So that in tandem with plastics, which which are estrogenic, so they're feminizing pesticides, also, all of these toxins, and there are there's a huge body of research in terms of how these toxins affect animals that are exposed to it. And you do see that the animals are less interested in mating, they start showing intersex conditions. So they're having basically anatomy that is partially of their own sex and partially of the opposite sex. And so I question what is this doing to humans? I don't believe that this exposure is completely benign, but it's gonna be, again, a while before we have definitive data on that. So I would just hope that for people who might be skeptical, try it. Honestly, try cleaning up your diet a bit. Also, physical activity can help a lot in terms of mental health, but I'm not sure if that answers your question in terms of the the effects of ultra-processed foods or what the concern around that

Practical Support Compassion And Real Connection

SPEAKER_00 31:35

is.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

Yeah, you are naming all these different contributing factors to the reality of sex stinction. And there are social, sexual, technological, biological aspects of it. It's kind of overwhelming to realize the magnitude of how serious this is.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

Yeah, I was gonna say it does feel very overwhelming, and I definitely felt that way when I was writing Sextinction because I the more you go down the rabbit hole and you see, okay, there are factors that are pretty obvious, but then there are many other factors I think that aren't getting enough attention in terms of the discourse and especially mainstream conversations about this issue. So I do think that we can be optimistic and move forward in terms of looking for solutions that work. And the biggest thing is to figure out why is this actually happening, because once we accurately diagnose why it's happening, then the solutions will actually make sense. Whereas right now, society keeps coming up with solutions, but they don't actually address the underlying problems, or people are less open to discussing what those problems are. I would say, especially mainstream institutions, I'm very hard on progressives in terms of their science denial when I was writing this book, because I do think that's playing a really big issue in sexuality research tends to have a left-leaning bias in terms of what is allowed to be published and talked about. So, go in terms of solutions for young men, I would say if you have a son who is struggling, and hear this all the time from parents, they'll say that I have my daughter, or my daughters are doing really well academically. They're going, they've gone off to college, you know, they got a good job, but they can't find a boyfriend or they don't seem interested in dating. And then my sons or my sons are not doing as well. They're, they have no motivation, they're in the basement, you know, they have no real interest in going outside, and I don't know why, I don't know what to do. And I would say the first thing is to really just have a lot of compassion for them because I'm sure there is something going on beneath the surface that is leading them to feel demotivated. Mental health, as I mentioned, is probably a big part of that in terms of the depression and anxiety. It could be other conditions that maybe haven't been addressed or acknowledged. I think in with your podcast, you do a really good job of talking about potential reasons why men might gravitate toward problematic porn use in particular. But I think even if it's not porn use that they're struggling with, there are other ways that say maladaptive coping strategies or maladaptive behavior can manifest as a result of early trauma or needs not being met and feeling as though they're not heard or they're not appreciated. So I would just ask parents, I'm sure like all parents are doing the best they can, but just to maybe think about what they might be able to do to offer more support to their kids and especially their boys if their boys are suffering. Things like diet, exercise, as I mentioned. This is crazy. Something I've come across more recently on social media is I see, firstly, my heart goes out to single moms. I can only imagine how difficult their jobs are. But if you are raising a son, please don't hate men. Please don't teach your boys to hate men, because, or to obviously, I guess you would it'd be less the case that you would see that boys would be taught to hate women. I see that tends to be more in terms of how young boys see their fathers treating their mothers or how their fathers speak about women. But I've just come across this trove of content on social media of women who say that they're teaching their children, both sexes, to hate men. And I just think, what do you think that does to a little boy? You might not realize it, but that little boy is going to grow up to be a man. And I've I've spoken to many young men who grew up in households in which they were taught by their mothers to hate men. And it it's so damaging to their self-esteem and leaves them very confused. It also leaves them open to, I would say, predation by women who may not be as nice. Because if they believe as men they are subhuman and they don't deserve to be treated well, well, what types of partners are they going to be attracting? I feel like this is such an important piece of it, right? It's just to help these guys feel better, have a reason to get up in the morning and be excited. Well, I guess going to the point about pornography, my perspective on porn is that because you're having sexual gratification from something that so closely resembles actual sex, your mind can't differentiate, right? The brain activates in the same way when you're looking at porn as when you're having an in-person sexual experience. And so it becomes very, very easy for that to become a replacement for the real thing. And especially I would say if someone is choosing to wait until commitment or marriage to have a sexual experience, it can become easy to be derailed by porn because it's it gives you that instant gratification or that what you want to experience instead of having to delay it and wait and and have the uncertainty of if I'm dating a woman, does she like me? Is she going to eventually want to pair up with me? And also to avoid the rejection that can potentially come from opening up to another person and saying, let's have a future together, right? That that's a lot more work than getting that gratification on a screen. So again, my my goal is not to shame men for this, because I can understand it's very different for men in terms of how they experience dating and courtship. It's such an important question, but hopefully that that offers some help.

SPEAKER_02 36:47

Yeah. Shame is not the answer. We need more compassion and kindness and presence with each other, like embodied in-person connection.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

Yeah,

Handling Rejection Anxiety And Next Steps

SPEAKER_00 37:00

I agree. Oh, one last thing I would actually say for young men is if you experience the rejection, just keep going. It's not about you, right? That's the biggest thing. Because especially if you're in the early stages of dating or talking to someone or meeting someone, if they're rude to you, especially, it's not about you. And it's a blessing that you see this person for who they are, wish them the best and move on. And you will find someone better.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

That's so great. I feel like that also speaks to anxiety as well, because so much of our anxiety can be about what if I'm rejected.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

Right. And also all of the internal dialogue that we have with ourselves about usually amplifying all the fears that we have that in many cases don't even come true. And so I would also say if you're struggling with anxiety, probably best to speak with a mental health professional. But when I was in the field, the best approach was exposure. So to go and put actively put yourself in situations that provoke your anxiety, because that's the only way your mind learns, oh, I can I can do this. I don't need to be afraid. So I can't give individualized advice. I always want to be clear about that. But definitely if people think that might be useful to speak to a professional about that. And you can work on steps and ways to eventually, if something is really like asking a woman, I was terrifying, but you can make baby steps like ask someone for the time, or smile, smile at a stranger and work your way up there.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

Awesome.

Sextinction Resources And Closing

SPEAKER_00 38:21

One thing I would like to say with sex sanction is that I know that the word sex is very prominent on the cover. If people are interested in getting the book, you can take the cover off. I'll show you here. And it's just a black cover underneath. I'm always concerned, you know, if there are children or if maybe people are not wanting to deal with the wrath of or harassment of reading a book that's screaming sex. I totally understand. Audiobook is read by me as well, and there's an e-book.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

If you buy the hardcover version, you can take off the cover to be more private in your reading in public. You can also get the audiobook, you can get the ebook. I listened to the audiobook and loved hearing Deborah's voice. Be able to speak with more emotion. You can find the links to all of these things in the show notes as well as to her website. Deborah, what is your favorite thing about doing this work?

SPEAKER_00 39:16

I love hearing people's perspectives and being exposed to new ways of thinking around whatever issue it is I'm writing about. Because I have my own ideas. I always base it as much as I can in the science and I try to be as unbiased as possible. I don't think sexuality or any form of scientific research should be swayed by politics. So that's the thing that drives me as a journalist now and as a former scientist. But I just love hearing the feedback and hearing people say whether they agree with me or disagree with me, just that is helped them think about this in a new way, and hopefully help them apply these solutions to their own lives to improve the way they live.

SPEAKER_02 39:54

Well, that has certainly happened today. Guys, you can go to drdebrasow.com. Thank you so much for being with us.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

Thank you so much, Drew.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

And gentlemen, always remember you are God's beloved son, and you, he is well pleased.